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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 October 2025
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Displaying 934 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

Good morning. It is important that, before introducing any provision that creates new criminal law, we are clear about the nature of the gap in the law that we are trying to address and how the new offence would operate in practice.

Given the definition of “ecocide” in the bill and how that relates to the 2014 act provisions, can you give me a practical example from the past 10 to 20 years of an offence that the existing regulatory framework in Scotland has been insufficient to deal with and regarding which this new criminal law would have enabled us to prosecute an individual or an organisation? I will come to you, Jamie, given your expertise in Scots law.

09:30  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

Can you remind me of the circumstances of that example?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

Excuse me, but that is not the question that I asked. What I am asking is: if a worker acts in such a way that results in ecocide, under the basic definition in the bill, who should be sentenced by the courts?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

I want to turn to sections 1, 3 and 4 of the bill, which deal with the issue of liability. In the bill, liability is split broadly into two forms: individual liability, which requires “intent or recklessness”, and the responsibility of an organisation or an individual in an organisation, in the provisions on “consent or connivance”. Some have suggested that the threshold that has been set for liability in the bill is too high. Do you agree?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

Simon Parsons?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

Does anyone else in any other sector have any experience of changes coming about as a result of its introduction?

Nobody? Okay.

My final point is on the issue of who should be liable. We heard evidence in the earlier session that liability should rest largely and solely—it would be fair to say that I am paraphrasing—with the decision makers and the directors in the organisation, and that the workers should be protected from the provisions in the bill. Given that your members are directors, Catherine, what is your take on that suggested change to the bill?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

I just want to make sure that I understand this properly. If someone in your organisation carries out an act that results in what, under the bill, is defined as ecocide, who should be liable and face prosecution for committing the offence: the person who initiated it or the directors?

11:45  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

I come back to Shivali Fifield. I want to understand fully your explanation regarding the issue of liability.

If an employee, under your definition of “worker”—I am not too sure how you would create that definition—were to act in such a way and commit an act that constitutes ecocide under the bill, and they are found to have done so and the case is proven, who, on the basis of how you are trying to amend the bill, should go to prison for 20 years?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

I am hearing from some of you a feeling that the bill is not necessary, while some are seeking further guidance or explanation about some of the bill’s provisions. It is worth reflecting on the fact that this is not a regulation-making bill; it is a bill that would create a criminal offence. The guidance and explanatory notes associated with the bill will take you only so far, because the real definition will be set by the courts and some terms will be defined by the courts if the bill is passed.

Is it your contention that the existing regulatory framework for dealing with environmental offences is sufficient? If it is not sufficient, where are the gaps that should be addressed so that the bill would be unnecessary?

I put that question to you first, Jonnie.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Michael Matheson

Catherine McWilliam?