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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 25 November 2025
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Displaying 996 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

What if that defence was removed?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is helpful. Thank you. Some EU countries have an administrative liability scheme as opposed to a criminal liability scheme when it comes to environmental crime, which is different from what we have in Scots law.

Deterrence is a key theme that has come through in the answers that we have had so far as to why we might wish to introduce a bill of this nature, with an ecocide offence. You will have heard the evidence that we received from the first panel. The head of environmental crime at the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service of Scotland said that it has been unable to identify any such offences having been brought to it since 2014 and that it is struggling to anticipate something in the future that the existing law would not be capable of dealing with.

If we lack any identifiable evidence of cases over the past, let us say, 10-plus years, and if our prosecutors are saying that they cannot think of any offences that could occur in Scotland that the existing law could not deal with but that the bill seeks to deal with, where exactly is the deterrence in introducing a bill of this nature?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Could I ask Rachel Killean about deterrence? Our prosecutors in the Crown Office say that they cannot identify any cases, and they cannot envisage any cases in the future, that they could not prosecute using existing legislation. Therefore, what is the deterrent effect of having a bill to criminalise ecocide?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

I want to pick up on that theme and come back, in particular, to Ross Haggart’s comments about the provisions in section 40 of the 2014 act, the permit exemption aspect and the cause and effect of that type of change not being made to the bill. If that aspect is not introduced as part of the bill, might the precautionary principle be, in effect, ramped up to the extent that SEPA gets so risk averse that any developments seeking permits will actually find it quite difficult to get them? Might you, as a regulator, become increasingly anxious about the liability that you might face at some future point and about being pursued for committing ecocide or for contributing to it? Is that a risk?

10:15  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

If it is not?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Sustainable Aviation Fuel Bill

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is very helpful—thanks very much. I must confess that I am a bit conflicted about the idea of investing in HEFA, given that the UK Government’s SAF mandate means that, by 2030, HEFA should decrease to 71 per cent of our SAF production and that, by 2040, it should decrease to 35 per cent. That says to me that the future will be power to liquid, so why should we bother spending hundreds of millions of pounds on investing in a SAF refinery facility? You have mentioned the timeframes. To be perfectly frank, I wonder whether Scottish Enterprise is wasting everybody’s time in looking at some of this, because I cannot see how it will make any business sense whatsoever, given the UK Government’s SAF mandate. Maybe Scottish Enterprise should reflect on that, because it might just be wasting everybody’s time.

I will turn to another issue, which is the funding that the UK Government has made available so far through its advanced fuels fund to support SAF project development. From looking in the paperwork that the committee has received, and joining the dots, I think that 19 projects have been awarded funding. Only one of those is in Scotland, in Orkney. Why has only one project in Scotland been allocated AFF?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Good morning. I want to pick up on the theme that the convener identified around the existing provisions in section 40 of the 2014 act. A couple of you—Mark Roberts in particular—mentioned the potential deterrent effect of the legislation, and other panellists agreed. What evidence is there that, given the sanctions that are attached to them, the provisions in section 40 are working as a deterrent just now and that, if we ramp up those provisions in the bill, there will be an even bigger impact?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

I am just trying to establish whether the points that panellists have made can be substantiated.

I want to stick with the theme of the existing regulatory environment and Professor Gemmell’s suggestions about whether it is operating or being utilised effectively. Clive Mitchell, in the evidence from NatureScot, you stated that the Environmental Liability (Scotland) Regulations 2009 provide an existing route to require remediation for environmental damage. You said:

“The threshold for when the Regulations apply is very high and so the Regulations have been rarely used”.

Can you expand on that? Is there a need for us to look at the fundamentals of the existing regulatory framework before we add anything new to it, in order to identify how it could be improved?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Is it fair to say that there is no evidence that a higher offence provided for in a bill would be a deterrent? It might be, but there is no evidence to demonstrate that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

It is just your gut instinct.