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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 25 November 2025
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Displaying 996 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Yes. I am talking about a situation where the company or corporate organisation had done everything that it should have done and all the procedures were there, but an employee acted in a way that was outwith the company’s procedures and that resulted in significant environmental harm. Some have suggested that the bill should be amended so that, irrespective of that, the directors of the company should be prosecuted. That is not in the bill, but it has been suggested that the bill should be amended to do that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Good morning. We have had a bit of a rear-view look at potential instances that could be covered by the bill. No one has identified any instances that have occurred since 2014—I think that Mr MacLeod went as far as saying that.

I am interested in the witnesses’ views on looking forward. Given your experience, are there gaps in the existing legal framework in this area that could interfere with your ability to prosecute a case in which severe environmental harm or significant environmental harm has occurred? Iain Batho, are you able to comment on that, given your expertise in prosecuting in this area?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Of course.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is an interesting concept. From what you are saying, if you are looking to increase your chances of getting a conviction and we have both the section 40 offence and the offence that is in the bill, you are more likely to pursue prosecution under section 40, even though that will have a capped sentence, because that may be easier for you to prosecute. Is that what you are suggesting could happen?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

My issue is that we have received evidence suggesting that there should be an amendment to the bill so that it could be applied only to senior management.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That could be potentially one of the unintended consequences of having two areas of law that overlap one another on this matter.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Okay. I will bring in Murdo MacLeod.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Ricardo, can I clarify something? Are you suggesting that the regulatory authorities in England and Wales are issuing civil penalties for crimes that, based on the definition of ecocide in the bill, the bill would make a criminal offence in Scotland if it was enacted?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is helpful, because there has been some suggestion of the bill being amended so that only senior managers in an organisation could be prosecuted. I am trying to understand the situation where an employee carries out an act that causes significant environmental harm but was outwith the company’s procedures and that they should not have done. How would you then prosecute a senior manager or director of an organisation who knew nothing about that and was not involved in it? If a person acted outwith the company’s procedures, you might then pursue a prosecution against a senior manager that could result in that person being imprisoned for up to 20 years. I do not understand how you would take that forward as a prosecutor or how our courts would look at it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

My point is not about the provisions that are in the bill; it is about the suggestion that those provisions should be removed in a way that would mean that the only individuals who could be prosecuted are senior managers.