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Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
Thank you. I have a final question. I opened with Mr Sim, so I will close with him, before I allow colleagues to ask questions. My question relates to the framework properly reflecting the current economic and political context. What you have said is:
“shouldn’t the Scottish Government set a priority of making Scotland competitive in attracting a working-age population from outside our borders, and stimulating robust economic growth to create jobs and attract them?”
Putting external migration to one side—obviously, we could attract many people from elsewhere in the UK to Scotland—why, do you think, is the Scottish Government not doing that?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
That was very helpful.
In your submission, you say:
“there is no clarity on what a National Care Service will look like or deliver.”
What would you like it to look like and deliver?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
Did you want to come in, Ms Rowand?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
Do either of you have a ballpark figure for the additional resource required to deliver that change?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
Okay—thank you. I think that other members will want to probe that point a bit further.
One of the things discussed in COSLA’s written submission, which is a real issue for the committee and has been for a long time, is the need for
“a genuine focus on preventative approaches”.
I think that is critical. You also say that,
“With ever greater levels of funding being directed toward the NHS”,
there are other ways to tackle child poverty. You mention housing, education and employment.
Surely the politics of that is a difficulty. Say, for instance, that the Government decides that you are absolutely right and it agrees 100 per cent with what you do, and that the next time it gets a Barnett consequential it will give a quarter of it directly to local government, rather than putting it all into the national health service. Surely the difficulty is that the media and Opposition politicians would then come down on the Scottish Government like a ton of bricks and denounce it for underfunding the NHS exactly at a time when there are huge waiting lists, blah, blah, blah. Surely the issue is that, while everybody knows—at least in my view—what has to be done, sometimes the politics gets in the way, given the hostility of the media. Some people might wonder whether it is worth it, in that we cannot necessarily tell the public what changes are going to be delivered over five or 10 years, as people may say that, if the Government puts money into the NHS now, they might not have to wait so long for their operation or whatever.
How do we square that circle with what we believe might deliver better in the long run? You speak about the NHS basically “fixing the problem” rather than actually “solving the problem”. How do we do that a time when we do not have a huge amount of additional resources? If there was lots of money for both local government and the NHS, we could do it, but how do we actually manage that difficult political situation?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
I will now open up the session to colleagues around the table.
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
I agree, as I am sure everyone else would, that certainty is important, but as the Scottish Government does not always have certainty with regard to its own funding it is difficult to pass certainty on. Do you not agree?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
Other members might want to focus on that point a bit more.
With regard to the overarching priorities in the review, you mention
“Meeting child poverty targets ... Addressing climate change”
and
“Securing a stronger, fairer, greener economy”,
and then go on to say:
“There is ... very little comment ... on the data and drivers behind these three priorities”.
What data and drivers do you feel should have been included?
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
I get tongue-tied myself. These things happen.
Finance and Public Administration Committee
Resource Spending Review Framework
Meeting date: 1 March 2022
Kenneth Gibson
If there are additional resource implications, one would expect that to be funded from core budgets. I am sure that you would agree that the Government does not want to undertake structural change for the sake of it. COSLA may not agree with all aspects of the proposals, but I am sure that it would agree that the reason for the Government’s measures is to improve the service overall in the long run. The Government may even be of the view that, while there may be short-term disruption, it might be worth it for long-term improvements. Is that not the view that it has, and is that not why it is going down that road? Why else would the Government be doing that if it did not believe that the measures would bring improvements in the long run for the people who require the services?
