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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 September 2025
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Displaying 3573 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Community involvement is important. I was at a public meeting a week past Saturday in Lochranza; its population is 120 and 75 people were at the meeting. I open up questions to colleagues.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I do not doubt for one minute that there have been remarkable successes, which you have detailed, but what about areas in which cultural change does not seem to be happening to the same extent? How uniform is the cultural change?

I will give one example. A decade or more ago, there was concern about the high proportion of national health service spend that was going on older people who were being treated in hospital but who did not need to be there. We are talking about around £1.5 billion at that time. Obviously, we have had a pandemic and things have changed, but where are we in trying to change the cultural approach in areas such as the NHS? You may recall that there was resistance from health boards in that area. They said that, unless they got more money, they could not change the way in which they did things with the resources that they had. I am aware that you allocated £500 million over three years specifically to preventative spend at the time. How can we ensure that some of the remarkably successful examples that you have given can permeate the entire public sector in Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I have one last question before I open up the session to colleagues around the table. Three weeks ago, our witnesses said that there is an opportunity in the wake of Covid-19 to empower and better resource communities. What does empowering communities mean to the Scottish Government? Does it mean empowering, within communities, small groups of those who tend to be active in community councils and elsewhere? How do we involve people more widely? Participatory budgeting has been a step forward, but what does community empowerment mean to the Scottish ministers?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

To be fair, I point out that I anticipated that that would be the answer. However, would it not be easier if that information was included in those lines in the reports? Another sentence to explain that would be helpful. That is why I asked the question.

I was going to ask you something else, but I cannot read my own writing, although I wrote it down only two minutes ago. I apologise—it might come to mind in the next minute or so. Oh! I see what it is, now.

I want to ask about the spring revisions. Many of the changes arise from changes in portfolios following the First Minister’s realignment of Cabinet and ministerial portfolios. Do you anticipate significantly fewer changes in the spring and subsequent revisions because of that, and that the next time we have a revision, there will be only relatively minor changes, as the pandemic eases?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. Professor Mitchell, you talked about how difficult it is to change and to move people away from existing budgets. Obviously, it is easier to have preventative spend assisting change when budgets are growing rather than under stress and strain. What can be done even in such adverse circumstances?

There is clearly an issue whereby one can cynically say, “We will bring in these wonderful new changes, but we will have to take all the flak from those with vested interests now, and someone else will see the benefits in 10, 15 or 20 years.” That can be a selfish approach, because politics is often about the here and now. How would you address that issue in practical, pragmatic terms?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I thought that you would.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

As Professor Mitchell will know, I have long been keen on decluttering the landscape and major public sector structural reform.

We will move on to Liz Smith, to be followed by Ross Greer.

12:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. This will be my final question, because others want to come in.

In the main, the Christie commission’s report did not offer specific recommendations to the Government on how to progress the proposed programme of reform. That issue has been touched on already. Was that a weakness? Do you think that the reform acts that have come through in recent years, such as the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012, the Public Bodies (Joint Working) (Scotland) Act 2014 and the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015, are steps in the right direction?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

The committee is aware of that; we have discussed the issue in recent weeks. Is it fair to say that the Government has concerns about the matter?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I thank the minister for coming. We will, in due course, publish a short report to Parliament setting out our decision on the regulations.

Our next panel of witnesses will be ready to start at 10 past 11, so I suspend the meeting.

11:05 Meeting suspended.  

11:10 On resuming—