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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

We will no doubt question the next panel about that when they appear before us in a few minutes’ time.

The financial memorandum anticipates savings or efficiencies through shared services across the national care service, but it does not acknowledge the corresponding loss of economies of scale for local government. It has been pointed out to the committee—I have heard this directly from local authorities as well as read it in the submissions—that there will be an impact on the viability of some of our smaller local authorities. What do you think will be the unintended consequences with regard to the finances involved?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

To be honest, though, it looks to me—and, I think, to many others—like we could be building a house on sand here. You have to get the primary legislation right first before you can think over the secondary legislation.

I am struggling to remember a time when I have previously received submissions that have been quite so excoriating with regard to the financial aspects of a bill. COSLA also made the point that no business case was produced before the publication of the draft bill,

“setting out the rationale, costs, benefits and risks of the National Care Service to facilitate meaningful scrutiny by Parliament”.

Why was that not done in the financial memorandum?

I know how bills have been produced in the past. Over the years, I have seen financial memoranda that have necessitated only one or two pages, and there has not been a lot of meat in them. However, this bill involves a monumental change over a number of years that will affect an extremely vulnerable section of all our communities. Surely much more in-depth thought should have been put into the financial aspects of the bill and its deliverability in financial terms.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That is my expression. That is how people feel. They feel that there has been a lack of consultation and almost that there is an imposition with regard to how it is going to work as opposed to people working together to create a system that might actually deliver over the next decade and beyond. That is the impression that I am getting. Colleagues might have a different view, but that is certainly the impression that I have got from the submissions to the committee and from speaking to my local authority and others.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I am sorry, but I am talking about the organisational changes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. Before we move on to transparency, I will bring in Alison Douglas.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I could not agree more. I have worked in the third sector and the private sector; when I was in the private sector, there was a staff suggestion scheme—and it had almost no impact. It asked things like, “How can the company save money and do things better and better?” I suggested that the company should incentivise people so that they got a share of the savings. The company then introduced a scheme where employees could get up to 10 per cent of what they saved by doing things more efficiently; it was then absolutely inundated by suggestions, because there was a reward for the people making them. Obviously, they were not all implemented, but that incentive stuck with me.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Only two other folk have said that they want to comment on tax—David Lonsdale, again, and Clare Reid—but if anyone else wants to speak about tax, please do.

Incidentally, David, I found it curious that in your submission you said that you want to reduce

“the number of local authorities, rates assessors, quangos, and planning authorities.”

I do not want to go into all of that, but I found it bizarre that you want to reduce the number of rates assessors because there is already a chronic shortage of them. How does not having people to assess properties help?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Your submission says:

“savings might accrue from reducing the number of local authorities, rates assessors, quangos, and planning authorities.”

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Are you not worried that some local authorities, such as Argyll and Bute, Highland or Edinburgh, would benefit disproportionately from such a tax, as opposed to authorities such as North Lanarkshire or Clackmannanshire?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I was planning a holiday in Coatbridge.