Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3539 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I have one final question. One positive aspect of the bill is the right to breaks from caring, but that has cost and staffing implications. CIPFA has said that

“There should ... be a role for professional assessment of need, as we see currently in social care and in the NHS”,

and that

“this will require financial investment in the professional workforce but is dependent on the workforce being available.”

To me, that seems more of an issue. We know that there is a chronic shortage of people working in care settings, with a figure of 300,000 across the United Kingdom. How deliverable will the measure be, given the staff issues? Will we be able to do it, given the workforce challenges?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

So there might or might not be a withdrawal of 75,000 staff from local authorities. Is that what you are saying?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I am a big fan of single public authorities. We will now expand the discussion around the table to include Douglas Lumsden, to be followed by Michelle Thomson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

The reason I asked is that we have not had any previous discussion on that, so I wanted to touch on it.

Sharon, my question for you is about an issue that you raise in your written submission. You say that there is

“Concern that the recommendation to increase Free Personal and Nursing Care for self-funders will not necessarily deliver a reduction to the amount paid by self-funders.”

Can you expand a wee bit on what your concerns are?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I thank our witnesses for their contributions. We now move into private session.

12:10 Meeting continued in private until 12:14.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I am sorry to interject, but you could say that about any service. You could say it about education, which is not the same everywhere. Bin collections are probably not the same in North Ayrshire as they are in Aberdeen. Are you saying that we have to have a national bin collection service and a national education service? Surely, if there is an issue that is affecting some local authorities—I do not know how common the cross-boundary issue is—you should address that, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The whole policy is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

It is not for us to criticise the policy per se, but the financial wraparound is of concern. The Fraser of Allander Institute said that, if the service is underfunded, it is

“unlikely to be any better than the system it seeks to replace”.

If we are to put colossal sums of money into new structural changes, surely that means that there will be less money available for delivery at the coalface.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

So the priority now, given the political commitment behind the national care service, is to ensure that it is delivered as effectively as possible.

In your evidence today, you have talked about the co-design process and working with stakeholders. You said that engagement has been very proactive. However, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers said in its submission that

“Local Government was not involved in the development of the proposals prior to the publication of the paper.”

If there is all this proactive work, why was local government not involved?

SOLACE went on to say:

“The consultation paper provided very little information about what the proposal would mean for vulnerable adults, children and families who rely on social work and social care services.”

It also said that the consultation was

“in a largely tick box format.”

What are we, as a committee, to take from that? What is your response to that?

10:45  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I am interested in the fact that you have mentioned the co-design phase a couple of times. There is a feeling among organisations such as local authorities that they have been bounced into the process and that co-design is not really a meeting of minds or, indeed, of equals. How is the co-design process actually going to work? I am thinking specifically of the financial structures, because that aspect, rather than the wider picture, is the committee’s remit.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

SOLACE also said:

“Organisational changes appear likely to consume much of the total funding available for the NCS, which is stated to be over £840 million by 2026-27. This is about half of the total investment in adult social care alone that COSLA, Social Work Scotland and others consider is needed. In addition, this would not include the investment in justice and children’s social work and social care services that is desperately needed.”

As I said at the beginning of the session, we are in a situation of financial difficulty and challenge in Scotland and across the UK. How will we square the circle of having these huge organisational changes while delivering for the people who require the service?