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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

You were asked:

“If applicable, do you believe your comments on the financial assumptions have been accurately reflected in the financial memorandum”?

I found it interesting that you basically said that you did not believe that they had been. However, the Fraser of Allander Institute took the view that the

“analysis provided by the Scottish Government is reasoned and logical.”

Will Emma Congreve explain the institute’s thinking on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that. You say in your submission:

“what could be the most significant”—

that great word again—

“public sector organisational change in recent memory must not be underestimated in both time, unnecessary distractions and increased costs.”

What do you mean by “unnecessary distractions”?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you.

Emma, I found the Fraser of Allander Institute’s analysis quite interesting with regard to table 3 in its submission. You say:

“Decisions relating to the number of Care Boards have not yet been made, and the figures in Table 3 assume 32 are created, one for each local authority area.”

Does it seem efficient to you to go from 32 local authorities to 32 care boards? What impact would that have on delivering what the bill is ultimately setting out to do, which is to ensure high and consistent quality of care across Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Do you have a view on that, Mark?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Do you have any fears about slippage in relation to cost? For example, it was indicated that the programme business case would be provided in the autumn, but we have not seen those figures yet, and they might or might not be available. Is it a worry that there might be slippage in cost and that the whole delivery might be delayed?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that opening statement. Given the submissions that we have received, you will understand that it is likely that there will be a number of questions from me and from colleagues around the table.

In its submission, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities mentions

“the long-term resourcing of the National Care Service; matters in relation to borrowing, holding of reserves, pensions, audit and VAT; and shared services”,

and it says:

“Disappointingly, the draft Bill and memoranda do not address these points explicitly and there is an unacceptable lack of clarity.”

Another issue came to the fore in all the submissions. We asked whether there was sufficient time to contribute to the consultation, and every respondent gave a one-word answer: no. We asked them to elaborate on that, and they said that the consultation took place over the summer and the period was far too short, given the magnitude of the bill and the depth of the financial memorandum, which is one of the most detailed—if not the most detailed—financial memorandum that I have ever seen.

How do you respond to those concerns and the other issues that I have raised?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Paul Manning, you said:

“Whilst the Financial Memorandum acknowledges that further work is required, this should have been undertaken prior to the publication of the Bill, to support adequate scrutiny.”

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I realise that. A number of caveats are given right at the start of the financial memorandum, where that point is made, and the Scottish Parliament information centre repeated that in its briefing, so we are aware of that. At the same time, a structure is being developed that seems to have unrealistic parameters, and that is of concern to all of us.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Basically, you are saying that, ultimately, local authorities might have to find money from somewhere else.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

On pensions, there is a real concern about viability, given that it is not known whether the national care service would be admitted as a member of the local government pension scheme, which is fully funded. Can you advise us of anything in that regard?