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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I call Douglas Lumsden.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Okay—thank you. Do you wish to make any final points before we wind up?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning and welcome to the 28th meeting in 2022 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee.

Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business in private. Does the committee agree to take in private item 3, under which the committee will consider evidence that it has received on the financial memorandum to the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill?

Members indicated agreement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Item 2 is an evidence-taking session with the Minister for Mental Wellbeing and Social Care on the financial memorandum to the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. Mr Stewart is joined by the following Scottish Government officials: Donna Bell, director, social care and national care service development; and Fiona Bennett, interim deputy director for national health service, integration and social care finance. I welcome you all to the meeting and invite Mr Stewart to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Where would the third sector fit in with those shared services? We took evidence from the Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland last week, and it said that it fears that additional costs would be incurred in order to meet information standards and data sharing requirements and to update software and undertake training. While noting that those costs might be modest relative to the overall scale of costs, the alliance stressed that it would be significant for individual providers and could affect the viability of third sector organisations, so there is concern that that could be an unintended consequence.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed. I now open up the meeting to questions from colleagues around the table.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, it does. I will follow on from that and move things on a wee bit. Your submission says:

“The ALLIANCE ... supports Volunteer Scotland’s calls to ensure that volunteers—while a valuable asset to the health and social care landscape—are not expected to substitute for paid care provision.”

Is there any indication that that is being considered?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I will let colleagues come in in a minute or two. Although I have given you quite a barrage of questions, there are huge areas that we have not touched on. I will ask one more question to Ralph Roberts, Mark Taylor and Emma Congreve, and then I will open up the session. Ralph, the potential for efficiency savings has been spoken about but, in your written submission, you said that

“it would be difficult to find additional efficiency savings”.

If those cannot be found, must the Scottish Government make a commitment to meet the cost, or should the cost be shared? Do you hope that efficiency savings can somehow be found? If so, where could they possibly be found?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

It does—thank you.

Mark, you commented that paragraph 51 of the financial memorandum

“provides details of the components of core management costs assessed, but the subsequent analysis does not provide any information against these headings.”

What level of cost could we be talking about?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Emma, you say in your submission:

“The creation of an electronic integrated health and social care record is in the legislation, but no costing has been produced. The reason given is that the work is at a too early stage to estimate costs, but it will be provided in the Programme business case due in Autumn 2022.”

We are now in the autumn. Have you been advised as to when those figures will be provided, if they have not been provided already?