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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for your contributions—they have been extremely helpful. I also thank you for travelling to Scotland, which makes a huge difference to the quality of the evidence that we take. I say that as someone who is quite averse to virtual meetings in the first place; on top of that, the committee has recently faced some difficult situations, involving all sorts of snarl-ups, in virtual meetings. Your attendance in person is much appreciated.

We will have a five-minute break while we change witnesses.

10:53 Meeting suspended.  

11:01 On resuming—  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Exactly. Take as much time as you need.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, that has come through strongly in evidence. I am now going to open up the session.

10:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

One of the things that you mentioned in your submission was churn. You said:

“Churn among civil servants is an issue across the civil service in both Whitehall and across the devolved administrations, which is encouraged for the development of generalist civil servants ... Researchers have also commented adversely about churn among politicians”.

I had a wee look. Apparently, in the year to September 2022, the UK Government had five education secretaries and, from 2000 to 2022, it had 22 housing ministers. Here at Holyrood, we have had four transport ministers in two years. How much does the churn in ministers, as well as in civil servants, militate against good decision making?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 10th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Our first agenda item is a virtual evidence session with Diane Owenga, programme director of the Policy Project at the New Zealand Government’s Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, to inform our inquiry into effective Scottish Government decision making.

Good evening, Ms Owenga, and welcome to the meeting. I understand that you will provide a short presentation on the New Zealand approach.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I am delighted that Diane Owenga is back with us. You had not been—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank you for spending a big chunk of your evening with us; we realise that it is about half past 10 over in New Zealand. I apologise for the difficulties that we had. I am not sure what end they were on, but it was great that you soldiered on throughout. We really appreciate it.

At future meetings, the committee will continue taking evidence on effective Scottish Government decision making, and I certainly hope that we can engage with you again in the future.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting.

10:28 Meeting continued in private until 10:57.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that introduction. I do not know whether colleagues heard everything that you said, but we will certainly ask questions and probe.

I will kick off before I invite colleagues around the table to ask questions. I want to go back to the start of the process regarding the Public Service Act 2020, which followed on from another act 32 years previously. Why was it felt that legislation was needed in order to try to change the culture and behaviour in New Zealand?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In effect, the process helps best practice to be inculcated across the entire Government. The interim evaluation that was commissioned in late 2020 touched on a number of points, one of which was the fast-paced change of policy work and the difficulties of changing entrenched behaviours. What kind of entrenched behaviours need to be changed in New Zealand?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That resonates, because we have some of those issues in Scotland. Our paper says:

“capacity issues and speed of decision making makes prioritisation and following those processes challenging. It also favours decision-making focussed on firefighting rather than addressing longer term challenges and squeezes the time for data analysis and identification of data gaps at the start of policy development.”

How is your new process in New Zealand able to overcome that long-term difficulty, which many Administrations face?