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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 16 January 2026
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Displaying 4176 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Hold on a second. Are you arguing that the NHS budget should be divided into those three areas, or are you arguing that it should be divided into those three areas with additional money for prevention? That is not really what we are saying. If we are spending on prevention, we have to look at disinvestment.

I will give an example. In a previous parliamentary session, we took evidence from Birmingham City Council, which had done a lot of work on prevention. It said that it was very difficult because it had to speak to social workers who had done a job for 35 years that had been, frankly, completely useless. Those were its words, not mine—I do not know what was done in that social work department. The council said that it had to get those people to do things in a completely different way, with a different mindset, because the amount of money that that non-service was costing was immense.

I am not saying that any area of the NHS is equivalent to that, but the Scottish Government has, in effect, a fixed budget, and we are not in the days when a cabinet secretary could stand up and say, “By the way, I’m going to allocate £500 million for preventative spend over the next three years, although it didnae work last time because folk just wouldnae disinvest.” Are you saying that preventative spending should come from the money that is allocated to the NHS, with a section hived off?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed.

I have three people who want to come in. I will go to Heather Williams first, to be followed by David Melhuish.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

However, investing in retrofitting houses is, really, capital, which in effect the UK Government dictates. With a limited amount of capital, which might or might not increase after the budget, should the Scottish Government invest more in retrofitting houses to reduce heating costs, for example—which might have an on-going health prevention benefit—or more in more affordable houses? I know what Euan’s answer would be, but I am just asking you, Lewis.

When I was a councillor, I remember that my local repair team was aghast when I said that I wanted the windows in 1,500 houses to be—I do not know what the word is, but you rethingummy them—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Heather Williams, on participation, productivity, Scotland’s economic growth and growing tax, you say in your submission:

“There is an urgent need to invest in disabled people’s employment and to address the systemic barriers that prevent disabled people from accessing employment.”

You have already touched on that. Can you expand a bit more on it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am not getting any volunteers, although a guy called Euan has just caught my eye.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

How much additional money would you raise? That is the issue.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Sorry, I just saw you nodding and I was not sure whether you wanted to come in.

Max, in your written submission, you mention a number of areas where things can be improved. You talk about convening power—I am a big fan of that—framing power, leadership, hard powers, introducing innovation funds, reconfiguring current reporting, Scottish Government procurement and pursuing a performance budgeting approach. We have the written submission, but can you say a wee bit more about that, just for the Official Report?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Lukas, Max has mentioned the C word—“commissioner”. You probably know that we have undertaken an extensive review on that issue and produced a 34-page report, which was published only yesterday, suggesting a moratorium on commissioners. Why is a future generations commissioner particularly important? Why does the work of a suggested commissioner have to be done via a commissioner?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I see that you want to comment, Sarah, but I was just about to bring you in anyway, because you have said in your submission that

“existing duties are too weak to establish the National Outcomes as key drivers of decision making”.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I can give an example. We were at the University of Dundee and talked to life sciences people who told us that folk can earn twice as much in other parts of the world but come to Scotland because it is a nice place to live with good quality of life and where house prices are not too high. I know that people have talked about the increase in council tax but, on average, it is around £700 less than it would be for an equivalent band D property in England.

We seem to hear that nobody will want to come and invest here if we put tax up by 0.1 per cent. Professor David Bell raised the issue of loss aversion, which means that you could give someone £100 and they would just shrug their shoulders but, if you took £100 away from them, it would be the end of civilisation. Loss aversion is an issue.

My apologies. Would you like to make your own contribution to respond to my point about the balance between investing in the social contract—as the Government might call it—and having higher levels of tax?