The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
Displaying 860 contributions
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 22 February 2023
Keith Brown
Let me finish my point. You have asked a question.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 22 February 2023
Keith Brown
If you have other questions, you can ask them after I have finished my answer, please.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 22 February 2023
Keith Brown
Convener, I am happy to answer the question, but I would like to try to get through my answer before being interrupted, if possible.
As justice secretary, my responsibilities for the prison estate are, in my view, what are germane here. Prison rules—this addresses the point that Mr Findlay has made—state that people are
“able to self-declare that they are transgender and are supported to express the gender (or non-gender) with which they identify, with staff using correct pronouns.”
It is important to mention that, because those are the rules in England and Wales, which are underpinned by United Kingdom legislation over many years. That is the process that is followed by prisons in Scotland.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 22 February 2023
Keith Brown
I have heard that said before, and I think that it has been said in the chamber. I was aware of that. Because I am now in post, I am concerned with making sure that the current review of the policy takes into account the most important groups. In relation to that, the views of women prisoners are of particular importance. The Prison Service is undertaking the review and the consultations. You may want to hear from the person who is in charge of that review.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 22 February 2023
Keith Brown
I have heard other governors say otherwise and that they think that the privacy and dignity of women in prison can be accommodated within the way that they deal with transgender prisoners. I have confidence in that view, but, of course, it will be subject to the current review.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 22 February 2023
Keith Brown
I know about and can speak to current policy, because I am involved in the process as a cabinet secretary. In the review that is currently taking place, people are being consulted with, including female prisoners, which is important, as well as other interest groups. I cannot speak to what you are asking about, as I was not in post as Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans in 2014. I think that it is important—
Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 1 February 2023
Keith Brown
Perhaps the lion’s share is not what we are looking to tackle here; it is the other part of it, if you like.
Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 1 February 2023
Keith Brown
I am just very surprised and delighted to be asked by both the Conservative members to get involved in a philosophical discussion about this, which is a pleasant change.
Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 1 February 2023
Keith Brown
There is another aspect of the test that covers the administration of justice. Philip Lamont or someone else can give the details of that.
That is a legitimate concern, but what we are saying is that the safety test will dominate in that area. When we talk about the administration of justice—we can get the exact words; I could not put my finger on those right away—we are also potentially talking about things such as jury tampering or the intimidation of witnesses. It is also about continued and wilful non-appearance at court.
If there is a worry that somebody might not appear in court and they are remanded for that reason, which is the greater harm that is caused? Somebody could be remanded for quite a lengthy period. You have just said that those things can get delayed for all sorts of reasons. Somebody who does not present a safety risk to the public could be kept in jail at the taxpayer’s expense simply to avoid the possibility of non-appearance.
The obligation on us is to ensure that we get better at making sure that people appear in court when they are meant to do so. I understand the risk. I speak as somebody who represents an area that had a very particular problem—one of the worst in Scotland—with that. The police took particular action to try to remedy it. We have to do more on that.
On the point about the test, maybe Philip Lamont could fill out the text that I have been unable to bring to mind.
Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 1 February 2023
Keith Brown
What Philip Lamont said is that, even at summary level, where non-appearance is part of the case against a person, that can be taken into account—unless I am getting that wrong.