Chamber and committees

I will not go into the detail of the discussions that I have had with the DFM up to this week and in the period before the budget, but those points are being made.

I very much agree with Pauline McNeill. The way in which Police Scotland dealt with Covid, COP26 and operation unicorn is an extraordinary record of achievement. Not many other police forces could have achieved that. That has registered with other police forces around the world. Policing by consent and the model that we have compared with other models, such as those in some parts of the United States, have registered. There is a lot of interest in how Police Scotland conducted itself during those very pressured times.

Covid is the key example in relation to the point that you have raised, because the police moved into a space that is often to do with health. That the police were seen as the first point of contact is a symbol of the trust that people in Scotland have in the police. I think that you are right. That has meant that they now have an expanded role, which the chief constable has always wanted, in relation to wellbeing and safety for the environment rather than only law enforcement for the population.

Crucially, when there is a health-related issue, we have to get better at the hand-off to health authorities. I mentioned some of the further iterations of reform that might come about in call handling and more liaison between the blue-light services.

You are right that the police have absorbed an additional pressure. I am involved in discussions about how we can better manage that. The classic example involves a person who is in severe mental heath distress. The police will often have to attend. It is fair enough that they attend, but they should ensure that a professional is put in place as quickly as possible rather than a police officer being there for an extended period of time. I concede that that is a challenge that we have to meet, and it features in the discussions within the Cabinet. It will do in the run-up to the budget, as well.

It will be different in different parts of the portfolio. I mentioned in my opening statement some of the digital innovations that we have developed and are looking to expand on. However, we will necessarily have to look to further public sector reform in order to try to fit in with those financial constraints that I have mentioned. I have had discussions with the chief constable of Police Scotland as recently as yesterday, and with other services, and I know that they are actively considering things that may help with public sector reform. Those things would be necessary anyway.

The experience of fire and police in particular is an excellent example of public sector reform. That was a difficult decision to take, around 10 years ago, and there were difficult periods afterwards; I am thinking about the establishment of the joint police and fire boards. In my view, however, having served on a joint police committee in a local authority, the level of scrutiny of the police is now far greater than ever before. Those services have already established substantial public sector reform, but there will be more to come, and they are actively considering that, perhaps in relation to how the three blue-light services can work more closely together, not least given the findings of the Grenfell inquiry. That will be happening.

We have seen that there have been delays on large-scale capital projects right across the UK. Brexit features prominently in the reasons for those. The pressures that it has caused for supply chains and costs are substantial.

Our intention is to complete the project on schedule, but of course that will depend on a number of factors. There have been delays before now. Pauline McNeill has previously asked me questions about delays caused by the change in the prospective site that was to be used and the choice of a new site. We must acknowledge that. As I have said from the start in relation to HMP Highland, we are to some extent at the mercy of external influences such as Brexit, supply chain issues and labour shortages. We are trying our best to withstand those very real pressures and keep to programme, but I cannot deny that they are there.

I am grateful that you acknowledge the pressures. You mentioned the idea of a cap. There is a cap—there is a cap on all that we do in the sense that we have the block grant, added to by whatever tax that we raise here and other sources of income. Therefore, that cap exists and has always been there. You are right that the question is how to marry things up within those pressures. I have no intention of overseeing a budget for the police force that results in 4,000 officers leaving. Despite press reports to the contrary, we have a very stable workforce in the police in Scotland—much more so than is the case in other parts of the UK—and there is real interest in applying for senior positions in the police force here.

On the point about situations where the police do not turn up for things, that has happened in many communities south of the border. In some communities south of the border, there has been no investigation of burglaries and other crimes for over a year and there is no intention to hold those investigations. We do not intend to oversee such a situation. However, I know from the discussions that I have had with the Scottish Police Authority and the police that they want to ensure that their model of policing is up to date and fit for going forward, rather than always looking back.

It is worth pointing out that the police start from a very strong basis. A police constable in Scotland gets about £5,000 more per year when they start than those elsewhere, and every rank up to assistant chief constable is paid higher in Scotland than elsewhere. We also have some of the lowest-ever recorded levels of crime. Therefore, the police start from a strong position and they do not intend to yield that position.

Based on the discussions that I have had, I think that there will be reprioritisation. Cybercrime is a real challenge, and the police will want to do more on that. There might also be a reconfiguration with regard to how the police want to deal with violence against women and girls. The position will develop over time, but the police will not have that level of fall-off in officer numbers—at least, there will not be a net fall-off of 4,000 officers. We do not intend to see that happen at all.

Yes, I think that it will remain in operation, and no, of course I am not happy when there has been a service failure. Those failures have been well publicised, and I have raised them with both the SPA and the chief constable when they have happened.

However, the contact assessment model that is now used is very effective when it is used properly. That is probably borne out by the fact that in Scotland—I think that I am right in saying—the number of calls that are answered within 10 seconds is around 10 per cent higher than it is elsewhere in the UK. The rate for the proportion of calls that are answered in under 10 seconds currently sits at around 79.9 per cent, in comparison with 68.3 per cent for the rest of the UK. That should not be the only bar, however, and we acknowledge that the rate has to be higher. Nonetheless, the rest of the UK is a useful comparison, because many of the same pressures apply.

We have had the HM Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland assurance review into the contact assessment model for call handling. I do not deny that it identifies issues, but it also identifies a number of real successes. We welcome Police Scotland’s plans to introduce the new digital contact platform, which will help to strengthen both the 101 and 999 services. Once again, I highlight that those are operational matters for the chief constable, and oversight of them is provided by the Scottish Police Authority.

I understand the point that Pauline McNeill is making, but she also started her comments by saying that she knows that I cannot comment on some of those things. Whatever else it was, the decision was taken by an independent Crown Office, so she knows the constraints around what I can say, but she also knows the process for accountability that is in train for that. If there is a subsequent inquiry, that will also be independent. That is the reason why I am not able to say more at this stage.

If there is a public inquiry, some people would term that as a process of accountability.

That is exactly the nature of the process. The plan specifically in relation to policing has to acknowledge the central role of the chief constable and the SPA. As recently as yesterday afternoon, there have been extensive discussions on those issues with the chair of the SPA and the chief constable. The intention is to ensure that the Cabinet, the Government and, I hope, the Parliament can support that plan in due course. Live issues very much along the lines that you have described are being discussed.

With mental health professionals attending directly?

It is probably important to say that—as I am sure that Katy Clark knows—body-worn cameras incur both a capital and a revenue cost. Where the information that is gathered by the body-worn camera goes is an important consideration, too, as are the logistics behind that, which also has impacts for both the capital and revenue budgets. The ultimate decision rests with the chief constable, but I acknowledge that it will depend on the resources that he has.

You have drawn a comparison with south of the border. We are a bit different in Scotland, in so far as the proportion of the police budget that is spent on people is substantially higher in Scotland, which puts pressure on the remainder of the budget and what else can be done with it.

We have had representations from the Scottish Police Federation and others. The federation said that its priority, as one stakeholder, was the pay and conditions of officers, such was the pressure that they had been under, and taking into account the impact of the cost of living. We have responded to that. It is also true to say that we cannot spend the money twice. I acknowledge the financial constraints.

I am a supporter of body-worn cameras, which I think can achieve savings in the longer term, for various reasons—which you will be aware of—but we have to live within the resources that we have. Ultimately, however, a decision on further roll-out will be for the chief constable to take.