Chamber and committees

No, it is not, and that is not the Scottish Government’s direction. The Government will be led from the moderate left-of-centre position that I have always occupied and which is the policy position of my party and is supported by all our members.

A week ago today, when I announced my candidacy for the leadership of my party, I set out that I wanted to build on the work of the SNP Government to create a modern, diverse and dynamic Scotland that will ensure opportunity for all our citizens. On Tuesday, in the closing words of my acceptance speech, I made it clear to the people of Scotland that I offer myself to be the First Minister for everyone in Scotland. That is precisely what I will do.

As the Parliament will be well aware, and as the Lord President reminded me when I took the oath of office yesterday, the Lord Advocate and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service are, rightly, independent of the Government in their responsibility for the prosecution of crime.

I am advised that it was not until the decisions by the courts in England and Wales in 2019 and 2021 that the full extent of the issues with Horizon emerged. Until that point, the Post Office maintained that the system was reliable—indeed, the Post Office told Scottish prosecutors in 2013 that its external lawyers had reviewed all potentially impacted Scottish cases and found no issues.

In 2015, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service was not provided with further evidence that had been promised by the Post Office to demonstrate that Horizon was as robust as it suggested. Therefore, the decision was taken to no longer rely on Horizon until such time as that further evidence was provided.

As we all know, the Post Office has, at best, obfuscated and, at worst, hidden the issues with Horizon. It is only through the on-going public inquiry that we are learning to what extent that was undertaken.

I will convey to the Lord Advocate the issues that Pauline McNeill and Russell Findlay have raised with me. As I said in my answer to Ms McNeill, we will continue to co-operate with other political parties about the best way to address those.

I will answer Christine Grahame’s question by saying that, although we are working to achieve the commitment to make contact within 72 hours, we should make contact as quickly as possible. We should not view the commitment to make contact within 72 hours as simply the measure of what we are trying to do; we should be working to get contact made swiftly.

There are opportunities for a telephone call or a video call to be made to individuals as a flexible alternative. However, I stress the importance of making sure that support is in place at the earliest possible opportunity.

It is with great pleasure that I rise to move the motions, in my name, that Kate Forbes be appointed as a Scottish minister and that Ivan McKee be appointed as a junior Scottish minister. In doing so, let me set out the approach that my ministerial team will take.

When I accepted the Parliament’s nomination for First Minister, I made it clear that I would be a First Minister for all of Scotland. Governments across the world are facing substantial challenges and, given those challenges, I believe that, when possible, the best approach is to build consensus in our Parliament.

In recent days, I have spoken of the political ground that my party and my Government will occupy, which is firmly in the mainstream, moderate, left-of-centre tradition. I believe that that is where most people in Scotland want us to be and that that therefore offers a sound starting point for that consensus building. I will work with colleagues across the Parliament to secure agreement when we can on the issues that matter to the people of our country.

For our colleagues in the Scottish Green Party, with whom we have shared a partnership Government in recent years, I hope that we will be able to find common ground, albeit without a formal agreement in place. In appointing my ministerial team, I have made clear to all my ministers the need to do everything in our power to help to bring about as much agreement as possible in the Parliament. Of course, there will be occasions when it is not possible to build consensus, or when ideas come forward from parties that have alternative but equally legitimate policy agendas but we simply cannot reach points of agreement. In both instances, we will listen and we will consider. If it is not possible to reach agreement—of course, in any vibrant democracy, argument is essential—I reiterate, for my part, that our engagement with members will be undertaken with courtesy and respect.

My ministerial team will respect different opinions and will move forward in the manner that I believe the people who sent us here want—engaging constructively with other parties and listening carefully to their ideas. It is, of course, the role of Opposition parties to oppose; equally, I will never shy away from stating the Government’s record and achievements through the steps that we have taken. In our mission to eradicate child poverty, we are lifting an estimated 100,000 children out of poverty. Since 2007, when this Government came to office, gross domestic product per head has grown more quickly in Scotland than it has in the United Kingdom as a whole. Productivity has also grown faster. Through measures such as removing peak rail fares and extending free bus travel to under-22s, we are actively helping with the cost of living as it affects individuals in our society.

In our most precious public service—the national health service—we have the best-performing core accident and emergency units in the United Kingdom. Prescriptions are free, while the cost continues to rise south of the border. Attainment is at a record high, and record numbers of students from deprived backgrounds are going to university. Significant progress has also been made in tackling the climate emergency, but we know that more needs to be done on climate change and other policy areas.

With my new ministerial team, we will work for every hour of every day to tackle the challenges head on and to build a better Scotland.

Before I turn to today’s appointments, I pay tribute to the ministers who are leaving the Government today. Joe FitzPatrick has been a hard-working Minister for Local Government Empowerment and Planning, leading on the Scottish Government’s relationship with our partners in local government and driving forward our ambition to improve the efficiency of the planning system.

Emma Roddick has served well as Minister for Equalities, Migration and Refugees. She has worked hard to build a better Scotland for minority groups and refugees.

George Adam has been a tireless Minister for Parliamentary Business. His role of liaising with other parties has always been performed with good humour and professionalism, and he has been integral to the structuring of constructive relationships between the Scottish National Party and the Green Party in the course of our partnership agreement.

I thank each of those ministers for their service to the Scottish Government.

I also pay tribute to the departing First Minister, who left office on Tuesday. I look forward to Humza Yousaf’s wise counsel from the back benches, as well as his enthusiastic applause for all that I will say. All those departing the Government leave with my sincere thanks and, I am sure, the best wishes of the whole parliamentary chamber.

The team that I have assembled represents the most talented and capable public servants that the Scottish National Party Government wishes to offer to the people of Scotland and to this Parliament.

First, I am delighted that Kate Forbes has accepted the role of Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and for the Gaelic language and Scotland’s languages. Kate Forbes has made a significant contribution to this parliamentary chamber, and her daughter appears to be making a significant contribution from the public gallery, as well. [Laughter.]

Kate Forbes is held in extremely high regard in Scotland’s business community and has a strong track record of championing issues that relate to the success of the Scottish economy. Indeed, this morning, she has been engaged in detailed discussions with the business community on the priorities that the Government will take forward.

As Scotland continues to be buffeted by the effects of Westminster austerity and Brexit, it is more important than ever that we use every lever at our disposal to harness Scotland’s economic strengths. Kate Forbes will play a key role in driving forward that agenda. In doing so, she will ensure that we deliver growth for a purpose. It must be growth that is sustainable, that benefits everyone and that improves our public services.

Kate Forbes will take on responsibility for Scotland’s languages, including one of Scotland’s most cherished assets—the Gaelic language. I look forward to demonstrating our support for the Gaelic language when I attend the parliamentary reception this evening to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the foundation of Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, the Gaelic college in Skye, in the Deputy First Minister’s constituency.

I am pleased that Ivan McKee returns to the Government. With his significant professional and political experience, he will make a formidable Minister for Public Finance, in a role that requires forensic attention to detail.

Alongside Kate Forbes’s and Ivan McKee’s appointments, there are some other changes in the ministerial team. Kaukab Stewart becomes Minister for Equalities, an issue on which she has campaigned her entire adult life.

Jamie Hepburn becomes the new Minister for Parliamentary Business. I know that he has warm relationships with MSPs from across the political spectrum. Combined with his political abilities, that means that there is no one better suited to that key role—a role that is even more important with a minority Government—and he will report directly to me, in recognition of the significance of parliamentary relationships.

Angus Robertson will take forward our work across culture, external affairs and the constitution.

Christina McKelvie, in her role as Minister for Drugs and Alcohol Policy, will now report directly to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, ensuring the closest possible working with our other public health priorities.

Tom Arthur, who has been a highly effective public finance minister, will become the new Minister for Employment and Investment.

I pay particular tribute to the former Deputy First Minister, my friend Shona Robison. In stepping back as Deputy First Minister as I form a Government, Shona Robison has displayed the typical selflessness and team spirit that she has demonstrated throughout her many years in government. Nobody, except those who have served as finance secretary, understands the extraordinary effort that is required to steer a budget through the Parliament, and I am therefore delighted that Shona Robison has accepted my invitation to continue as finance secretary, which is a role that she has accomplished with tremendous success.

A number of ministers remain in post. They are the best people for their roles, and they will work closely with their new colleagues.

I finish by pledging to the people of Scotland what they can expect from my ministerial team. The aim of my Government will be to help people and their families to get on in life, to live happier and healthier lives, to feel secure and, with that security, to feel a sense of possibility and opportunity. That ambition should be for not just a minority or even a majority of people but for everyone, which is why the goal of eradicating child poverty is so close to my heart and will be central to the direction of my Government.

We promise to do everything that we can to help Scotland’s business community not just to survive these difficult times but to thrive.

On constitutional change, everyone in the chamber should remember that there is a majority in this Parliament for independence. That is the result of a democratic choice that was made by the people of Scotland. I know that some Opposition members might not like that choice, but, frankly, it is odd that some so often disregard that choice. More than that, it is disrespectful to the people who put us here to disregard that choice. Perhaps this new chapter in our democracy will bring some reflection on that important point.

Those of us who believe in independence do so because we believe that, with the powers of a normal independent country, we can collectively, as a nation, build a wealthier and fairer country. Therefore, we will continue to make the case—in line with the mandate that we have received—for the powers that we need to make the most of the talents of all our people.

We will do everything that we can within our current powers. We will engage with and listen to Scotland’s people, our civic organisations and our businesses, and we will work with members of the Scottish Parliament across the chamber to deliver a better Scotland, to drive sustainable economic growth, to deliver better public services and to eradicate once and for all the curse of child poverty.

For me, all those things are interlinked. Public services can be properly funded only when we have a strong economy, and the economy can be strong only when every citizen is reaching their full potential. A fairer economy is the bedrock of a healthier and happier population. I and my ministerial team will focus on all those efforts in the service of the people of Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that Kate Forbes be appointed as a Scottish Minister.

That the Parliament agrees that Ivan McKee be appointed as a junior Scottish Minister.

I will not respond to all the points that have been made in the chamber, but I will respond to a number of them, because they are serious and important points that have been made by all colleagues. I embark on my term as First Minister with a genuine desire for this institution to work more collaboratively than it currently does. I accept—and have accepted publicly—that, today, our politics are polarised and that there has to be effective leadership to improve that situation. That is very much at the heart of some of the comments that Meghan Gallacher made in her speech. I have pledged to give that leadership on behalf of the Scottish Government and to contribute to ensuring that we can arrive at agreements in our Parliament that will improve the lives of people in Scotland and ensure that they can have more confidence about their future in this country, given the enormous pressures and challenges with which people wrestle at the moment.

Martin Whitfield made a number of remarks about the record of the Government. In the speech that I gave in this place when I stood down as Deputy First Minister, I said that I would give some advice to the Opposition, which was that I did not think that it was a particularly strong narrative to say to people that everything in Scotland today is awful. I say so genuinely, because I went through a period in the run-up to the 2003 election, when I was leader of the SNP, of making the argument that everything was absolutely awful, and it did not do us any good electorally. I offer that friendly advice from a sage election winner to Mr Whitfield, with the generosity of spirit for which I will be renowned in the years to come.

On Willie Rennie’s contribution, I welcome the willingness of the Liberal Democrats to enable the appointments to be made today. I recognise the rationale and motivation for doing that—to create some space for us as a Parliament to progress from where we are today to finding areas of agreement and common purpose.

Mr Rennie encouraged me to be a bit more explicit in answering questions. Actually, I was trying to do that at First Minister’s question time today. I may have startled a few people with some of my answers about some of the challenges that we face. Over lunch time, I conceded to the Presiding Officer that those answers were perhaps a bit on the lengthy side of things. I see that the Deputy Presiding Officer is gesticulating to me about the length of the answers. I will do my best.

Mr Rennie makes a substantive point about what can be achieved when there is substantial engagement between members of Parliament. Natalie Don, the Minister for Children, Young People and the Promise, has worked hard with colleagues across the chamber to get the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill into a stronger position today than it was when the Government introduced it. I acknowledge that some of that strengthening has been because of the Opposition’s contribution to the debate and the Government making a response that it originally was not prepared to offer. Willie Rennie’s point about how we can find common ground is therefore an important one.

Without disclosing the contents of a private conversation, I advise members that, some months ago, I said to Mr Rennie in the corridor that I had listened to him on the radio and found myself thinking, “He does make a fair point about the flooding issue in Cupar.” Let me take Mr Rennie’s issue away and see what I can do about it, because I did think that he made a fair point. However, if Mr Rennie believes that Jamie Hepburn has been liberated from a heavy burden, I am afraid to tell him that he is wrong on that one—there is a straight answer to that question—because I fear for the burdens that Mr Hepburn will have to carry in the period going forward.

Lastly, I come to Ross Greer’s contribution. He set out what is, understandably, a deeply personal perspective for him, which is shared by his colleagues. I understand that. I think that Ross Greer and his colleagues in the Green Party know that I respect the issues, considerations and perspectives that they have. What I was trying to say to Patrick Harvie in my response to his question at First Minister’s question time earlier is that the country that I lead today has a modern, diverse and dynamic society. I recognise that, as do all the members of my Government. We want to keep it that way, so that is what we are committed to doing. We want to ensure that the values of diversity that have been at the heart of this Parliament’s journey over so many years are protected and enhanced as our country moves forward together.

When I say to the country—as I did on Tuesday, standing here—that I offer myself as the First Minister for everybody in Scotland, I cannot convey adequately or strongly enough that I mean absolutely everybody. I want each and every person in our society to feel that they are at home and at peace. I come to those conclusions from some of the motivations that Mr Greer has talked about—from a very deep Christian faith. I believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God. That is the foundation of who I am. Nothing can separate us from the love of God; we are equal in the eyes of God, every one of us.

I hope that those comments, which are more forthright ones about faith than I have ever uttered in my 45 years in politics, will perhaps illustrate to Parliament the magnitude of the seriousness with which I take the issues that Mr Greer put to me and also the seriousness with which I embark on my office as First Minister. I want to ensure that the Government that I lead, and the participation of all my colleagues in it, is undertaken in a fashion that ensures that everybody in Scotland feels that their Government is with them, protecting them, assuring them and making them feel safe, and will always be on their side. That is what I offer the people of Scotland when I say that I will be the First Minister for everybody in our country.

I am greatly honoured to be a nominee for First Minister of Scotland.

This year is a year of anniversaries for our new democracy. It is 25 years, as colleagues have said, since the establishment of this Parliament, and it is 10 years since the referendum on Scottish independence. It is a time to reflect but, more important, it is a time to look to the future. Both those democratic events were a result of growing demand from many people in Scotland for self-government. The extent of that self-government journey is still a matter of debate, but we are all sitting here today because a sizable majority believe that, in key aspects of Scottish life, it is better that decisions about Scotland be made here in Scotland.

The Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats should take pride in having governed Scotland through the difficult early years of devolution, when much of the debate was about the cost of this building, rather than about what we could do with the powers that are invested in it. The Conservatives, under the leadership of Annabel—now Baroness—Goldie, can look back with great credit on the constructive way in which they often approached Opposition; they certainly helped me with a budget or two. The Scottish Greens have brought a distinctive voice to our politics, and they became the first Greens to serve in a Government in the United Kingdom.

My party, the SNP, has used the powers of this Parliament to abolish tuition fees and prescription charges. We have brought in a more progressive income tax system and we are, through the Scottish child payment, lifting children out of poverty. Indeed, the Scottish child payment has been hailed as the most significant measure to tackle child poverty anywhere in Europe in 40 years. In our national health service we have, despite its challenges, the best-performing core accident and emergency departments in the United Kingdom.

Policy and record are, of course, a matter of debate and contest, but there is something that I hope we can all agree on. I am proud that it was an SNP Government that was led by the first woman First Minister and then by the first Muslim First Minister. I pay tribute to Humza Yousaf—a man of unfailing courtesy who served my party, but also served this Parliament and his country, with distinction. When Humza Yousaf announced his resignation, he said this:

“To my colleagues in the opposition, regardless of political party, I genuinely do wish you well. I bear no ill-will and certainly bear no grudge against anyone.”

That is the dignified mark of a man whom I am proud to call a colleague and friend.

Throughout all the 25 years of the Parliament, I have been privileged to serve my constituents and the people of Scotland. Indeed, I was a little perturbed to see the following statement against my entry on the Parliament website this morning, under the heading “Previous roles”:

“John has had 22 previous roles”.

The old joke about giving a busy man more to do seems to be relevant at this moment. Under the heading “Parliamentary and Government Roles” the web page says, as of this morning:

“John does not have any parliamentary or government roles”.

It is that entry that I would like to change after this afternoon’s vote.

I hope that we can all recognise that, despite our political differences, we are all here because we want the best for Scotland, whatever our specific role happens to be. For me, it is with all my experience—but with much more than that—and with my burning ambition for a better future for this country that I am seeking to become First Minister.

The idea of ambition brings me to the second of this year’s anniversaries: the independence referendum of 2014. Both those who are against independence and those who are in favour of it deserve to be heard. Through dialogue, debate and deliberations, I believe that it is possible to argue our different positions respectfully.

For my part, I look at the years since 2014 and I see the impact of Brexit, the policy of UK austerity, the economic damage of the mini-budget, and the fact that wages in the UK have stagnated, that productivity is too low and that inequality is far too high. I look at the independent countries that are comparable to Scotland but are wealthier and are more equal than the UK, and it reinforces my core belief that Scottish self-government is the right way forward for Scotland.

Those of us who believe in independence do so because we believe that it will equip this Parliament with the powers that it needs to match the success of those comparable independent states. That, in turn, will mean more resources for our national health service and our public services, the opportunity to grow our economy free from a broken Westminster economic model, and the prospect of rejoining the European Union and escaping the damage of Brexit.

I recognise that, in all this, it is essential for a First Minister to listen to other people’s perspectives. That will, of course, be what I will do. That includes listening to the people who voted for a pro-independence Parliament in 2021 and to those who take a different view, and then engaging in the lifeblood of our democracy—persuasion that is based on evidence while respecting honest and honourable differences.

In that spirit—building on the achievements in Government, with a focus on the economy, our national health service and the public services, and on a drive to lift children out of poverty, through patient dialogue—I ask for the support of Parliament to become Scotland’s next First Minister.

I am very grateful to Douglas Ross, Anas Sarwar, Lorna Slater and Alex Cole-Hamilton for their kind comments this afternoon, especially in relation to the support of my family.

When I stood down as Deputy First Minister in March last year, I believed that that would be the last senior office that I would hold in politics. Having then served as a senior minister for 16 years, I felt that I had, to coin a phrase, done my bit. To find myself accepting office as First Minister of Scotland today is, therefore—to utter a classic understatement—something of a surprise. It is, however, an extraordinary privilege and it is my honour to accept the office of First Minister, committing myself to doing the best that I can for Scotland.

As I navigated my way through the media pack in the corridors of this Parliament last week, prior to announcing my candidacy for the SNP leadership, I tried to explain that I was taking my time to decide whether to stand because I had to be certain that the decision was right for my family. For me, my answers to the media were not a stalling tactic or an evasive answer from an experienced politician. For me, it was the truth.

Members will know that my wife, Elizabeth, has multiple sclerosis. She is indefatigable in trying to make sure that MS does not get in the way of her living life to the full but, much to her frustration, she often has to rely on her husband for support and assistance. I could not just commit myself to becoming First Minister without being able to properly work out with my family how we would be able to manage as a family. We have talked that through and we will manage, but I cannot let this moment pass without making clear to Elizabeth my profound, eternal gratitude for the sacrifices that she is prepared to make to enable her husband to serve our country as First Minister. [Applause.]

I am so pleased that my father, my wife and children, members of my family and our dearest friends are able to be here today to see this moment. My only regret is that my beloved mother did not live long enough to see this day. As her parish minister wrote to me yesterday,

“Your mum would have been—quietly—proud.”

My mother’s love of literature and poetry, which rubbed off on her two sons, would have prompted her to find some words to sum up this moment. Yesterday, I was asked what the single most important policy objective would be for my Government. I made it clear that it would be the eradication of child poverty. In searching for words to sum up this occasion, therefore, perhaps my mother would have chosen these, which are from one of Scotland’s greatest poets: Hamish Henderson, who was born in Blairgowrie, in the very beating heart of my Perthshire North constituency. In his epic anthem, “The Freedom Come-All-Ye”, which I heard him sing in the early 1990s from an open-top bus in the Meadows of our great capital city, during a rally that demanded the establishment of this very Parliament, Hamish Henderson wrote:

“So come all ye at hame wi’ Freedom,
Never heed whit the hoodies croak for doom.
In your hoose a’ the bairns o’ Adam
Can find breid, barley-bree and painted room.”

If there was ever an anthem that railed against child poverty, those words from Hamish Henderson echo through the straths and streets of our diverse country as a call for us to act. I will therefore be unapologetic about bringing to the Parliament measures that we can take to eradicate child poverty, and I look forward to seeking the support of others to achieve that aim, because I recognise that that is how it is going to have to work. I am leading a minority Government and I will need to reach out to others to make things happen—to pass legislation and to agree a budget. To “pass legislation” and “agree a budget” sound like dry and technical parliamentary terms. However, in reality, they mean that, to fund our schools and hospitals, give our businesses a competitive edge, take climate action, eradicate child poverty and change people’s lives for the better, we will have to work together.

As colleagues have—fairly—recognised, the Parliament is intensely polarised at this time. I accept my part in creating that environment, whether by shouting put-downs from the front bench or heckling from a sedentary position. I promise that that will all stop. I have changed. [Laughter.] Perhaps time will tell on that one.

This is not the collaborative place that it has been in the past—a collaborative place that has done so much good to improve the lives of people in Scotland. As the Parliament marks its 25-year anniversary and as one of the relatively small group of members who have been here from the start, I reflect on the major developments that have taken place through collaborative work and agreement over that time: for example, the ban on smoking in public places, which was taken forward by the Labour and Liberal Executive; minimum unit pricing, by the SNP Government; and the introduction of free bus travel for the under-22s, by the SNP-Green partnership. I commit my Government to working to create such agreement across the chamber. I hope that there is space and willingness for that to happen, in the interests of the people who sent us here.

It is hardly a surprise to anyone in the chamber that I believe that this country could do more if we had the powers of a normal, independent nation. Others in the chamber take the opposite view. That is the essence of democracy—that people are free to hold, express and pursue different opinions. The question that we face in the Parliament today, however, is the more practical one of whether our disagreement on the constitution prevents us from working collaboratively within the existing powers of the Parliament to eradicate child poverty, build the economy, support jobs, address the cost of living crisis, improve the health service and tackle the climate crisis. I will give all my energy and willingness to engage and listen in order to ensure that that is not the case, and I invite others to do the same.

When I pitched up at Forrester high school in this city in 1979 at the age of 15 wearing my SNP badge, and my friends and teachers wondered why I had become involved in this fringe party, I could scarcely have imagined that my journey would involve becoming the First Minister of Scotland. It is an extraordinary privilege to hold this office, and I thank Parliament warmly for the honour that has been given to me.

To the people of Scotland, I say simply this: I offer myself to be the First Minister for everyone in Scotland. I am here to serve you. I will give everything that I have to build the best future for our country. [Applause.]

The speech by Jackson Carlaw, the convener of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, was, in two respects, an outstanding one with which to open the debate.

First, it explained something that does not get nearly enough airtime: the significance and effectiveness of the public petitions process, which is one of the jewels in the crown of the identity of this Parliament.

The second element of the importance of Mr Carlaw’s speech was the recognition of the seriousness of the issue that has been raised by Nicola Murray, who is one of my constituents. One point that I have tried to explain to Nicola is an understanding of the significance of the fact that we are gathered here this afternoon, in this chamber, to devote our entire afternoon’s business to the consideration of her petition. If ever there was an example of the triumph of the design of our parliamentary system, it is that one member of the public, who has had an absolutely harrowing experience, is able to find some—I stress the word “some”—solace in the fact that her Parliament is able to respond to the suffering that she has endured. It has provided the opportunity for the Government to be challenged by the petition that has come to the committee. The committee has considered the petition, which has overcome the necessary process of scrutiny, given that many petitions come to the Parliament, and has decided that the petition is of such importance that the Government should be challenged about it, the minister should respond to it, and we should debate it all afternoon.

That is a triumph not only for the design of our parliamentary system but for my constituent Nicola Murray, who has endured inexplicable suffering and has brought this issue to us. The issue is very significant, because Ms Murray challenges us to think about whether the existing arrangements—which all of us, in good faith, have put in place—are adequate to deal with the circumstances that people face.

As I have discussed with Ms Murray, the events in her case took place before the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018 was in force, and, when I think through some of the issues that are involved, I wonder whether things would have been different had it been in force. Would that have given more protection to my constituent than our pre-existing system did?

That brings me to a wider experience, which has come from spending a large part of the past year sitting on the Criminal Justice Committee—in particular, over the past few months, as it has been scrutinising the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill, which is currently before the committee and which Parliament has approved at stage 1. The evidence that the committee took about the experience of victims was, again, harrowing. We have—I think—strong legislative frameworks in place just now, but we have taken from members of the public testimony that was, in some cases and at some times, impossible to listen to.

As a Parliament—and I encourage the Government to do likewise—we must remain open to exploring in our minds the question that is at the heart of Nicola Murray’s petition, which is whether our current arrangements are adequate and fit for purpose.

I very much take the point that Maggie Chapman and Maurice Golden made. Nicola Murray’s exact proposition might not be perfect. However, as all members know, as we scrutinise legislation, a proposal made at stage 2 might not be perfect, but the Government will take it away, work with the relevant member and come back at stage 3 with a refined proposition that everybody agrees will work. I hope that we can leave today’s debate with members of Parliament and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs feeling able to consider that, although my constituent’s proposal might not be the perfect solution, a solution needs to be found to address the circumstances that she has experienced.

Having listened to the debate, and in particular to Jamie Greene’s intervention on the cabinet secretary, I am left questioning whether the answer lies in sentencing guidelines or in a new offence. I understand exactly where the cabinet secretary is coming from on the point that we have judicial independence and operational independence for the police and for the Crown.

Going back to what Mr Carlaw said, though, I do not think that any of us can look at my constituent’s experience and say that a £300 fine feels appropriate. The question that the petition forces us to encounter and consider is: what is the right approach? Is it a new offence, or is it to recognise that sentencing guidelines are not appropriate?

My plea to the Government would be not to close the door on this case, but to leave it open for further consideration of the appropriate way to address my constituent’s unquestionable suffering. We should address that by commending her courage and doing something about it.

Before Mr Carlaw leaves his point about the comparison between different petitions systems, I note that the Scottish Parliament’s development of what has been an effective parliamentary petitions system should be recognised. In my experience in the House of Commons, petitions arrived and went nowhere. In this Parliament, however—as is obvious—petitions are lodged and can end up occupying the afternoon business in the parliamentary chamber. That is a commendation of the strength of the parliamentary rules here and of the work of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee.