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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 May 2025
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Displaying 4236 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

Has the United Kingdom Government engaged with the Scottish Government on any changes to expected financial support to take account of what is a colossal and unprecedented set of damaging impacts on the sustainability of a long-term capital programme?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

With the greatest respect, that is not the question that I asked, cabinet secretary.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

I appreciate that point, but is there also wider engagement and an understanding within Government, beyond the justice organisations, of the necessity for other solutions that could result in a reduction in the prison population, such as the availability of supported accommodation, employment and training opportunities, literacy and numeracy support, health and wellbeing support and mental health interventions? Is it recognised in Government that those things are important if we are to win the prize of reducing the amount that we are spending on incarceration—which, as you suggested in the comparison that you gave the committee, is a very substantial amount of public expenditure?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

So is this the moment for the Government to be bold in the challenge that it puts in front of a range of organisations—all of whom have been in front of this committee asking for more money—to say that we must shift our focus, because we cannot go on like this?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

Finally, if better outcomes are being achieved, is there an argument for money to be allocated to other purposes as a result, instead of its being argued that the money allocated to a particular organisation or policy area can be increased only because it was argued for in the pre-budget process?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

I will move on to another aspect. I was very struck by the detail that you placed on the record a moment ago regarding your experience in your professional life of the size of the prison population and where it is now. Making a rough calculation of the financial difference in the budgetary costs of accommodating that larger number of prisoners, I estimate that it must come in at something in the order of £90 million. It strikes me that that scale of additional financial pressure to be managed by the Scottish budget creates conditions in which the Scottish Government, the judiciary, community justice services and diversionary activity services should be absolutely focused on maximising the opportunities to avoid incarceration if it is safe for that option to be taken. Are all those players engaged in that dialogue? Are they all pointing in the same direction?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

How I would interpret your completely fair observation, Mr O’Donnell, is that the private sector is, in essence, insulated from the effect of inflation, and the public sector carries the can. The argument that those contracts represent some degree of risk transfer is complete baloney.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

Thank you. I turn to the capital cost issue. Do you have any current experience of the real increase in capital costs in the current environment? I am probably talking about capital costs in this financial year versus what you would have expected them to be, let us say, three years ago. For example, for a particular project two years ago, you might have expected it to cost £20 million, but, in fact, it has cost £20 million plus X—are you able to furnish the committee with any live examples of that, because that would be a helpful piece of data?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

What is the month during the year when the inflation rate for the private prison contracts is set?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

Essentially, the private sector contracts were inflation proofed at the time of the agreement of the contracts. What is the risk transfer involved in that, whereby the private sector is protected from the rampant inflation that the public sector faces?