Chamber and committees

This is a long intervention.

I am sure that I speak for all the members who have spoken in the debate when I say that I am delighted by the cabinet secretary’s response. That is what I expected, because I know that she is personally committed to this. I agree that we must be clear about the purpose of the transcript in the first place. I spoke to the fact that it could be helpful to lawyers as well as to victims, so it is worth scrutinising in detail who the service should be extended to and, obviously, what the cost would be. The critical thing is to make it permanent. It must be sustainable in the long run, or it is not worth doing.

I am content to seek to withdraw amendment 145, and I will be delighted to work with the cabinet secretary in any way to get something that everyone is content with by stage 3.

Amendment 145, by agreement, withdrawn.

Amendment 179 not moved.

We can come to that. The member will certainly not contradict me on the fact that the issue is not in the bill at the moment. That is why we did not take evidence on it.

Just to be clear, I support pretty much all that Jamie Greene has just said. However, as somebody who is here to scrutinise, I would like to have heard evidence from, or even had the chance to talk to, the Parole Board. That is my only issue here.

I did not design the bill—the Government designed the bill—so this is where we are. The bill is too big, which makes stage 2 more difficult. The committee has successfully argued for more time—you will see that—and I am very supportive of the amendments and will not vote against them today. I will hear what the cabinet secretary has to say, because there is an awful lot of merit in what Jamie Greene is saying.

Has he had any discussions with the Parole Board? Is there anything that he could help the committee with? The matter will be out of the committee’s hands after today, and it will be for the full Parliament to scrutinise it. If we are going to make a decision at stage 3, getting as much information as possible would be helpful.

I was not able to attend it, but committee members attended a private meeting at which the issue was raised. Given its importance and the detail that Jamie Greene has gone through, it strikes me that it exposes the need for something to have been included in the bill in the first place. Jamie Greene is speaking to a theme that is similar to one that the committee has been dealing with, which is the trauma that victims experience in the criminal justice system.

There seems to be an omission in the bill. Jamie Greene will not be surprised that I am going to say that it would be difficult to make a judgment on whether this is the right thing to do without having heard from the Parole Board for Scotland, which the committee has had no contact with on this. Maybe, in summing up, Jamie could say whether he has had any discussions with the Parole Board. I am not familiar with the full processes of what the Parole Board does or does not do.

In my opinion, it exposes the failures of the stage 2 process as a whole that we are so bound by the Scotland Act 1998, and I believe that some committees in the Parliament are giving thought to how to change that. However, this is a good example of a really big issue that is not included in the bill, and we cannot easily take evidence before stage 3 on something that has now proved to be really important.

Finally, since we started dealing with the bill, it has been my opinion that it is far too big. Regardless of our positions on the issues, the committee members will probably testify that there are huge issues contained in this single bill. If we wanted to focus on victims and trauma, I would have thought that there was a case for having a bill on that issue alone and leaving some of the other issues to be dealt with separately.

My quick contribution is to say that, similarly, I am very sympathetic to the subject matter that Pam Gosal, Sharon Dowey and Maggie Chapman have brought to the committee, and I am very grateful to them for doing so.

I think that I am right in saying that the Parliament—in fact, a former Justice Committee—addressed the question of how costly it is to obtain a non-harassment order in the civil courts and said that we need to do more to ensure that, where necessary, the courts could impose them of their own volition. However, we have not made the progress that we should have made. Many women do not even qualify for legal aid—because some benefits are taken into account in that consideration, they lose out.

The principle is definitely right that the court can impose non-harassment orders in cases where things are clear, such as in domestic abuse or sexual offence cases.

I will listen to what the cabinet secretary has to say before deciding on how to vote. I just wanted those members to know that I really appreciate their lodging their amendments and that I am very sympathetic to the subject matter.

The amendments in this group are giving me a bit more cause for concern. It is not that I disagree that remorse should be taken into account, but the amendments are as much to do with the release of prisoners as they are about victims. Again, we have not had much opportunity to understand the whole basis on which prisoners are released, other than that they have the opportunity, once they have served either 50 per cent or two thirds of their sentence, to go to the Parole Board.

Do you happen to know whether remorse is a consideration at the moment? I presume that orders for lifelong restriction do not go through the same process, so they will not be included. I just do not know the answer to that question. I would be surprised if there were no passing discussion, at least, with the Parole Board as to whether remorse was a factor. I know that, in relation to orders for lifelong restriction, psychological reports will be drawn up in which remorse is a factor, because what is being considered is not only the risk to victims but the wider risk to communities. There could be a risk of harm to a victim, to more than one victim or to communities. That is, I imagine, a different consideration, although it is still a question of safety, risk and all the rest of it.

I think that you can see where I am going with this. There is a lot of complexity to the debate. If the Government is going to come back on this at stage 3, as I think it will be doing on the other amendments, I will be content with that. However, I feel that there is much more to the issue than the impact on victims; it is about the whole mechanism and process of release for prisoners. To be honest, it surprises me that the amendment was allowed, because it is about the release of prisoners. However, it would be helpful to know if that is already a consideration by the Parole Board.

Amendment 145 is a probing amendment. It makes the Government-led pilot for access to free court transcripts permanent. All members will be aware that Hannah Stakes, who campaigns on the issue, says that there have been 84 applications for transcripts to date and that she has been contacted numerous times by those who have applied, articulating the importance of the issue to them personally.

Eamon Keane, a solicitor who acts for victims of sexual violence, said that, in his view, the free pilot has aided his work greatly and that

“The transcript of evidence is often the only comprehensive and objective account of what was or was not said in cross-examination in a case.”

He goes on to say:

“Clients understandably only have a partial memory of the process of giving evidence. That is a critical point. I can think of two cases in which, without the transcript, matters would have dragged on to everyone’s detriment”.

Angela Constance has said that most of the applications have been made to seek some degree of closure and recovery, in keeping with the emphasis on the trauma-informed and person-centred aspect of the pilot. I would like to put on the record how much I welcome the cabinet secretary’s extension of this important pilot. I know that she is committed to it, but I want to probe the issue and ensure that we have it on the record that I want to see it as a permanent measure, although I accept that it needs to be tried and tested.

I move amendment 145.

Will the member give way?

I agree with what you have said about the abuse that goes on, but do you agree that what is not helping women, particularly those in domestic abuse cases, get to court and in front of a sheriff in the first place is the lack of legal aid provision? Some people see this as a criminal matter—and it is—but the situation is really impacting on women who are trying to access legal aid for such cases.

Very briefly. These amendments are in keeping with the theme of a victim’s right to know. As Russell Findlay and Jamie Greene have said, one of the takeaways for the committee when it listened to victims was that they did not feel part of the case in which they were the main complainer. I am very sympathetic to that.

I want to make a few points that are relevant here. First, I am not aware of the current situation. I remember that a former Lord Advocate—I think that it was Colin Boyd—announced to Parliament that, for the first time, the Crown Office would tell complainers and victims why it did not proceed with the cases, when it previously did not do so at all. I have no objection to putting that in law, but I want to know whether the Government is minded to say what the current position is and—