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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 January 2026
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Displaying 2154 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. I wanted to examine the question of what difference the bill would make to the duty of candour and ethics in relation to current codes for police officers. Police Scotland is very concerned about this and you will have read its evidence. Police Scotland says that the insinuation is that most police officers do not currently abide by some code of ethics and all the rest of it. You probably read that. I am trying to discern what difference the bill would make.

Kate Wallace, you said several things to Russell Findlay. The first thing that you said was that you have had some cases where there has been sexual exploitation by police officers, and I just want to separate out the different things. Sexual exploitation is obviously a criminal act. Do you have concerns that there are gaps here when there is a criminal act by a police officer in some of your cases?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

I just wanted to be clear about that.

I am not talking about the complaints process, because it is clear that, when complaints take a long time, that is unacceptable, and it is something that could be fixed.

I am sure that you, of all people, are very familiar with the tragic circumstances of the Emma Caldwell case, as we all are, but one of the issues with that case is the way in which the police investigated it. It was a long time ago. Is there anything in the bill that would change anything about the way in which that case was investigated, simply being that the police followed lines of inquiry that did not stand up and, eventually, 20 years on, that became clear? Is there anything in the bill that would allow for a complaint or anything? I am trying to come at it with a view to what difference the bill would make to big cases like that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

You said that senior positions in an independent body should be taken by retired police officers and not by serving police officers. Do you accept that, as in all professions, particularly where there are complaints, people would need some expertise? Someone who has never served as a police officer would not understand what the job was. Surely an understanding of the role of a police officer in Scotland would have to be factored in when such a body was designed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

It would be helpful for us to understand how that body would operate.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

In my line of questioning, I am trying to understand what good this bill might do, what the gaps are and whether, if we were not doing what was in the bill, there is anything else that would need to be resolved. Would you be able to provide the committee with any details about the length of time that officers have been waiting for their court trials and so on?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Lastly, on the question whether an independent body is the answer, this is my concern in that respect—and I have to say that I do not have a view on this, myself. An example suggested in our papers relates to someone making a complaint because a police officer has used too much restraint. That must be a difficult judgment for anyone but, if you have no experience of restraint, how can you make a judgment on that sort of complaint against a police officer? That is the question that I have with regard to whether a completely independent body is the answer.

12:30  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

In cases where police officers go before the court and are not convicted, should any other misconduct issues related to those cases automatically be dropped? I hear what you are saying: you do not want to do things the other way round, as Sharon Dowey has suggested, because it might prejudice a court case. Obviously, we would be talking about a higher court here. If there is no conviction, why should the police continue with a misconduct disciplinary procedure against that police officer? After all, the court has already determined the matter.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

I see, but it just seems grossly unfair to be tried for the same offence by the court and by the police. It might be fair enough, if it were not for the issue of timescales. We have heard loud and clear really alarming evidence from Craig Naylor about the level of distress and mental ill health among the officers concerned. Everyone is prepared to defend themselves and deal with the charge against them, but it is the duration that they have to wait. Should there be clear timescales in legislation that Police Scotland has to abide by?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

It is not a supplementary—well, it kind of is.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

As an alternative model—an independent body—has been raised in the lines of questioning, I ask Dr Lennon what that would look like. Would there be police officers on the independent body? Most professions, rightly or wrongly, police themselves or have some representation. What would the independent body cover? Would it be misconduct or all complaints?