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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 29 August 2025
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Displaying 1839 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Then there are two distinct measures here. One is about what we do with juries with regard to trauma-informed practice, but there is also a distinct proposal for a single judge to sit. That is what my question is about. I am struggling to see how you could judge the effectiveness of that measure.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

It is interesting that your first answer was that it would be the conviction rate. The Government has made it explicit that it is not going to look at the pilot in terms of whether it is more effective, because it says that that is not what it is designed to do, so that would not be a benchmark.

Is it fair to say that it is going to be difficult to benchmark effectiveness?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

I wanted to ask about the jurors that you used in your studies. Had they sat on rape trials, or just trials in general?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

That was really helpful.

I want to ask Professor Chalmers and Vanessa Munro about juryless trials and whether you have a view on how the Government can measure their effectiveness. That has given me some cause for concern. Whether you are for or against the idea, how would you ascertain how effective a single judge would be? What are you benchmarking it against, given that there are no other jurisdictions with single judges? Do you think that it is possible to measure that effectiveness, given that the Government has also said that the intention is not to increase or decrease convictions per se, but to give victims a different experience of the court system?

Vanessa Munro, since you are on screen, do you want to answer first?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

I understand that, and it is a very important aspect of the proposal. However, on that point, you seem to be saying that, if we legislate for judge-only trials, it will be difficult to ascertain their effectiveness, because there is a question of what we would benchmark that against. Is that fair?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but in the case of the defence, presumably the accused would have access to their lawyer or solicitor and there would be engagement with the accused, so there would not be a requirement for any change.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

However, it would apply in relation to the prosecution. The principle of the prosecutor prosecuting in the public interest and not acting on behalf of any victim is the reason why there is a question whether it is appropriate for a victim to discuss with the prosecutor the prosecution of the case and have an understanding of the case.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Tony Lenehan, do you have anything to add?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Two weeks ago, I questioned the Lord Advocate and Lady Dorrian specifically on the inclusion of the indictment of murder in the remit of the specialist court. I find that extraordinary. I am not a practitioner, so it would be helpful if you could give a view on that. As a layperson, I think that murder is a plea of the Crown for a reason, even if there is a sexual element. The crucial element is that although, under the bill, murder could, of course, still be prosecuted in the High Court, a Lord Advocate could choose not to prosecute it in the High Court. I would appreciate it if you would comment on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

That is right.