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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 July 2025
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Displaying 1264 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

—so we are only going by what we understand. The judge would normally direct the jury by saying, “If you’ve got reasonable doubt”. Would you accept that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Thank you—that is a fair point.

Lastly, aside from the three verdicts, you do not see why the current system should change. Is it fair to highlight, however, that we currently have three verdicts and that that is why—as Joe Duffy said earlier—we convict on a majority of one? At present, someone can be tried and convicted of murder or rape on the difference of one vote. That is the reason why, if we were to remove one of the verdicts, the Government would also look at the ratio of the jury. Is it fair to say that we should look at the ratio if we take away one of the verdicts?

I realise that that is not where you are coming from—you just feel that there should be more convictions. However, we must look not just at rape trials but at all trials.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Would it not be fair, therefore, for the Government to look at the majority issue?

10:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I totally acknowledge that. However, it is that issue that I am questioning you on. Conviction is possible on a majority of one. Surely, without any bias in favour of one view or the other, you can see that, if one of the verdicts is taken away, it would be fair to look at the ratio of the jury, in order to create a balanced system. You might come up with a different answer—such as eight or 10—but is it not fair to look at the issue?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Would you acknowledge that the committee is required to look at changes that affect all trials, including for rape, murder and everything else?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Yes, I have acknowledged that—

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

You then have to decide from there. In the current system, if you have that doubt, you choose which verdict to give.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I note your point about the Faculty of Advocates. Last week, we heard evidence from Professor Fiona Leverick, who expressed the same concerns about removing the third verdict, or one of the verdicts. She said that she was concerned about the current proposals because they are out of step with the rest of the world. I wondered whether you had heard that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I was just asking whether you knew what Fiona Leverick had said to the committee. She is not from the Faculty of Advocates. I was just pointing out that she gave that evidence to the committee, and we have to consider it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 November 2023

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. This is complicated—I will say that.