Chamber and committees

Thank you. I take the point that we are clearly locking too many people up, given that those on remand are a quarter of the prison population, but I am interested to hear that they do not seem to get access to the same treatment while they are there. I understand that there are some legal aspects to how remand prisoners are treated, but when it comes to support, if they have started taking drugs while they are in jail—the number of prisoners who do so is high enough—there surely should be no distinction between prisoners and remand prisoners? What do you think, Gemma?

I am glad you added that in, because I have a case exactly like that in Glasgow right now.

Cabinet secretary, I just want to check that I have understood what you said about what the courts can do. I agree that there should be more encouragement to use the orders, but the Scottish Government policy note says:

“We anticipate that in a given situation the level of financial penalty imposed by the courts is likely to be the same regardless of whether it is a restitution order or another financial penalty such as a fine. The financial impact on the offender and their family, and any resulting impacts, are therefore anticipated to be unchanged as a result of the implementation of restitution orders.”

My reading of that is that, if a court were considering applying a restitution order, that would not necessarily be in addition to a fine, so that would not be a barrier. However, I thought that you said that it can impose both. Did you mean that if it does impose both, the financial penalty should not be higher than it would have been had the court applied only a fine?

If I understand our papers correctly, the anticipated result of the order should be such that the financial impact on the offender would not be greater than it would have been, albeit that a mix is being used. I will just read from the policy note again:

“The financial impact on the offender and their family, and any resulting impacts, are therefore anticipated to be unchanged”.

Does that mean that, even though the courts could impose a fine and a restitution order or a compensation order, there are not three separate figures? In other words, there is potential for the overall amount to be three times as much as it would have been if only a fine been imposed. If that is right, are you saying that the overall amount of the three figures should not be higher? If the courts could do that, and the overall cost to the offender would be higher, that would impact on the ability to collect the fine.

Any information that any of the panel could provide on that would be helpful. We need to know where the system is not working for the purposes of the report.

I will ask about remand prisoners. Around a quarter of prisoners are on remand. Does that need to change? The committee understands the subtle and important difference in how remand prisoners are treated, because they are innocent until proven guilty and they are waiting on a trial. Many of them will be on drugs—although they were not on drugs when they went into prison—and some will not be. There is a combination. Do we need to change anything in relation to how remand prisoners get access to drug treatment?

A mother has written to me because, if her son is released—he might still be remanded but he may be bailed—she knows that there will be a vicious cycle. There is very little chance, or far less chance, of getting a person into recovery because of all those things. I appreciate you giving that example.

Suzy Calder, I think, described the different ways that drugs can enter prisons. Do you have a focus on any of those in particular? For example, do you focus on exchanges during visits or on drones?

Good morning. The evidence session has been very informative so far. I want to continue on the theme of how drugs get into prisons. That is what the public want to know. They do not understand the complexity of what you are dealing with or the different ways that drugs get into prisons. I will continue Sharon Dowey’s line of questioning on the use of drones and your successes in tackling that, which was good to read about.

Stephen Coyle, you said that, sometimes, drones will drop drugs packages outside the prison windows. How do criminals communicate with prisoners? How do prisoners know where the packages are and who they are for? How does the communication network work, and are you able to subvert it in any way?

Detective Chief Superintendent Higgins, you might not be able to answer this, but the committee would like to know whether there have been convictions for the use of drones. If there have been cases in which you had an idea who was behind it and you reported it, there must have been convictions.

Sure, but, as a complete layperson, I would have thought that there must be some obvious triggers. Are there no identified potential risk factors, such as being in a cell for that length of time and the boredom that comes with not having anything to do? Would that be regarded as a risk factor for someone who was not previously a drug user?