Chamber and committees

On police numbers, based on the modelling that you were asked to do, which you referred to in your submission, police numbers could be as low as 15,000. Would that mean that you would have to make police officers redundant?

That is noted. The committee is well aware of the relationship between poorly maintained buildings, poor environments and mental health, and a whole lot of other issues in relation to not having the modernisation that Sharon Dowey raised. Closing police offices makes savings in one sense, but communities and police officers are concerned about being out of operation while they have to travel much further back and forth. Your point is well made and it is noted.

I agree with Will Kerr, who has said that it is an embarrassment to Scotland that we do not have the full roll-out of body-worn cameras. As Martyn Evans outlined to the committee, there is a lot more to consider than simply the equipment, as it is also about the infrastructure that goes with it. I honestly thought that you were going to say to Sharon Dowey that the roll-out would be complete by May 2025, but you said that it is only going to begin in 2025. Can you give the committee an indication of what that means? What are the numbers? Will hundreds of officers have body-worn cameras? Can we follow a timeline so that we can see what the planned roll-out looks like? Will it be 200 or 300?

Thank you for the clarification. My final question is for DCC Jane Connors. I want to set the context for my line of questioning. I understand why you would want to talk about automation, and that you have to look at every possibility as there could be a very difficult budget outcome. However, I confess that automation fills me with dread, to some extent. I would like to know a bit more about what you mean by automation.

Many years ago, when all the call centres were set up, I had concerns that the public might lose out on the service that they used to get. If we put that to one side, would automation mean that when someone calls the central police number, they might not get to speak to a human being? What does automation mean and how will it impact the way in which the public get access to the police when they need them?

Good morning. It is interesting to note that the use of fiscal fines has fallen. Is there any information on the levels of fiscal fines that have been used? How often have the maximum fines been used? In the pandemic period, the maximum fine was increased to £500, and you propose to extend that.

Is there any information on how often the maximum fine has been used? My reason for asking is that £300 to £500 is a significant jump. That maximum has been in place and you are asking the committee to support its extension.

I remembered that Karyn McCluskey gave strong evidence to the committee the last time she was here, so I went back to look at it. You said to the committee that community-based disposal orders are an issue, and that 80 per cent of sheriffs would like to give such sentences but cannot, because users of drug services simply lead chaotic lives and the disposals take place at specific times. Sheriffs end up giving short-term sentences because they cannot see a way around that. Is there a way around the problem of sheriffs not having confidence that structured community sentencing in its current form can work?

The sheriffs have a problem when they are looking at whether someone is a drug user, because drug services are available at specific times. I am trying to establish whether there is a way around that in a community sentence. If you cannot fix that bit, there will be an unending cycle.

Are you saying that we need to combine the community service orders that anyone could get with community service orders for people who have drug or alcohol addiction issues, so that sheriffs can be confident that they can apply a community service order as part of a prison sentence, because they are satisfied that, within that, they can work around the issues, so that a prisoner can get access to the drug services that they need. Is that correct?

I welcome the progress that has been made, but I remain concerned about the extension of the time limits and a number of other things in the SSI. I might have considered the national jurisdiction differently, but I accept that it all has to be in one SSI. I am concerned about the lack of information on the use of fiscal fines. I have a long-standing concern about that. I was concerned about it even when the previous Government was in place, because we must be clear about the range of offences that the fines are used for and how well they are used. I note that there has been a reduction in their use, which is interesting. I would have liked to know whether sheriffs are using £300 or £400 fines and what tariffs they are using for the fines. In the absence of that information, I cannot vote for the SSI.

I expressed my deep concern about the issue in meetings that I had with the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service before the pandemic. As the cabinet secretary will recall, the Parliament took a lot of pride in the time limits that were established, which were unprecedented. We extended the time limits because we felt that they were far too tight. Now, they have been relaxed to such an extent that it is having an impact on the prison population, and particularly on the remand population. Sharon Dowey was quite right to make the point about the restrictions on what we can do with someone who is on remand while they are in prison, and the proposal would prolong their situation for another year. Katy Clark and I argued that time limits could have been extended case by case. Although that would have been more cumbersome, we felt that it would be a better alternative.

For those reasons, I cannot vote for the SSI.