Chamber and committees

I strongly support amendment 152, which the cabinet secretary has lodged. I strongly agree that we need to know more about jurors’ approach to rape cases, and I think that there is full agreement that that would be extremely useful insight.

Like Sharon Dowey’s amendment, some of mine were submitted some time ago. I was trying to resolve in my mind what type of research would be useful to inform us about the implications of removing the not proven verdict. I acknowledge that, as we have discussed, the committee has seen some useful research, but that has limited value compared to research on actual juries.

Amendment 75 was an attempt to ensure that research on juries would be conducted immediately after the bill received royal assent, and amendment 151 proposed a three-year period for such research. However, I acknowledge what the cabinet secretary said about the need for certain variables to remain the same in any research that is undertaken, so I might need to give further thought to what would be useful in that regard.

As I established earlier, the part of the bill that removes the not proven verdict will still require a commencement order. I do not know whether there is a period in which direct research could be carried out, which would involve lifting the bar on asking juries questions about their opinions on how they voted in particular cases and looking at the balances in cases in which the not proven verdict was reached.

It is crucial that we gather as much information as we can, because we are stepping into the unknown. Although I have said that I am more supportive of the 10 to five majority, I accept that we are stepping into the unknown. One way or another, we must try to have some research carried out to ensure that we have done the right thing. Members in a future session of Parliament might need to do that if conviction rates were to change in one direction or another. There is no way that we can avoid having to review what we do so that we can say whether we did or did not do the right thing. Therefore, it is very important to have such a provision.

Finally, I acknowledge that the Government is already doing research on the question of evidence by commissioner, which is really important. The use of evidence by commissioner is fundamental to getting more victims to come forward and give evidence, but we need to be satisfied that, when victims volunteer or opt to do that, there are no downsides, such as juries perhaps taking that evidence less seriously.

There are lots of questions—perhaps too many—that could be asked in research. Before stage 3, it would be valuable to have a full discussion about how we can ensure that we get the best information available to inform the decisions that we take.

You have outlined a position that is broadly similar to mine, which is that you do not want to go with a simple majority. Would it make sense for the Government not to draw down the not proven verdict for a period of time, to allow research to be done with juries after lifting the restriction in the Contempt of Court Act 1981? Otherwise, we would make the change right away, the research would be done in the new configuration, and there would be nothing to compare it with. I have wrestled with the question of when to do the research and what value it has. Have you given that some thought?

I find Sharon Dowey’s contribution very helpful, because it mirrors my feelings about something that sounds like quite dramatic and necessary change but which involves lots of issues that remain unresolved. I maintain that a lot of the specialist judicial management can be done without legislative change. It would be wrong to say that other quite radical changes to the system have not been supported by the committee, different parties or the Government and that everything rests on the creation of a very large sexual offences court.

I remind the committee to consider whether it is satisfied that the result of every single solemn case in the High Court and the sheriff court will be what the cabinet secretary is saying that it will be—although she did not address the question of delay, which is one of the significant issues in the court system. Sharon Dowey addressed that issue, and the costs. Is the committee content that we can achieve what the sexual offences court sets out to achieve?

Although we are talking of cases that are of the same type—they are all sexual offences cases—they are not all of the same level of seriousness. I agree with Tony Lenehan, who was quoted by Sharon Dowey, when he says that we have a hierarchical system, in that we have the High Court for the most serious crimes, and then we have lower courts. There is nothing in the bill that prevents a sheriff from sitting in a rape case. I cannot sign up to that, and I have lodged an amendment that we will come to later that might change it. There is no doubt that more sheriffs will be used—that is how this will be done. The sexual offences court will use more sheriffs—whether or not the Lord President is satisfied that they are trauma-informed and able to do the job. That is something that the cabinet secretary has to accept.

I would have had more respect for the change, or been more supportive of it, had the question of how rape cases will be dealt with in the new sexual offences court been addressed. Liam Kerr quite rightly asked the question. Nothing about how the court looks, physically, will really change—it will still be a court somewhere in Scotland. There might be procedural changes, but I am arguing that those can be made without legislation.

Given the widely drawn powers of the sexual offences court, which mean that the cases that it could consider could include murder—I will come on to address that concern—we would be creating a lot of changes at the same time that we do not know the outcome of.

Why would we not still try someone for murder in the High Court as a matter of absolute certainty? Why would we not argue it the other way so that, if they felt that it was appropriate, the Lord Advocate could say that a murder case with a sexual offences element should go to another court? As it stands, the sexual offences court would have complete discretion to go beyond sexual offences cases.

Yes, it was a powerful point—it was made by Lady Dorrian. The question that we have to ask ourselves is that, although we all want dramatic change—I want that too—are we satisfied that, just because there is a report that says that change will happen in a particular way, the proposed sexual offences court will achieve it? Are we satisfied that the Government will put the resources in? Are we satisfied that there will be a smooth transition from the current court structures and that there will not be a few years of delay? When we get to the end of the process, I would have thought that some future committee will have to review whether or not the proposal has achieved what the Government said it will achieve.

I am arguing that we can still achieve similar aims, or the same aims, by approaching this in a different way. Do not forget that there are still problems to be resolved—for example, rights of audience have not fully been resolved. I thought that the way to resolve that is to keep some of the elements that are already there, but it is for Liam Kerr to decide whether he is persuaded by that.

There is a lot of change that has to happen regardless of whether there is a sexual offences court. That includes the way that victims are treated in court, the points in Katy Clark’s amendment on a single point of contact for victims and those in my amendment on the right for a victim to sit down with an advocate to understand their case. We have to look at the issue as a whole. If we want this transformation—and we all do—it cannot be achieved simply by the creation of one single court. Pretty much all those things have to happen. I agree with the cabinet secretary and Lady Dorrian that we have to make sure that we make transformational change when we have the chance to do so.

On that basis, I will withdraw amendment 76.

Amendment 76, by agreement, withdrawn.

Amendments 155 and 156 not moved.

Section 37—Sexual Offences Court

Amendment 26 moved—[Sharon Dowey].

The increased duration of some placements as a result of the increased sentenced and remand populations is welcome. Will the minister outline whether appropriate mental health support will be given to children who might be awaiting proceedings or trial? In relation to young people who reach the age of 19 and who are in the criminal justice system, has any assessment been made of what support they might need to transition to a young offenders institution?

We can come to that. The member will certainly not contradict me on the fact that the issue is not in the bill at the moment. That is why we did not take evidence on it.

Just to be clear, I support pretty much all that Jamie Greene has just said. However, as somebody who is here to scrutinise, I would like to have heard evidence from, or even had the chance to talk to, the Parole Board. That is my only issue here.

I did not design the bill—the Government designed the bill—so this is where we are. The bill is too big, which makes stage 2 more difficult. The committee has successfully argued for more time—you will see that—and I am very supportive of the amendments and will not vote against them today. I will hear what the cabinet secretary has to say, because there is an awful lot of merit in what Jamie Greene is saying.

Has he had any discussions with the Parole Board? Is there anything that he could help the committee with? The matter will be out of the committee’s hands after today, and it will be for the full Parliament to scrutinise it. If we are going to make a decision at stage 3, getting as much information as possible would be helpful.

I was not able to attend it, but committee members attended a private meeting at which the issue was raised. Given its importance and the detail that Jamie Greene has gone through, it strikes me that it exposes the need for something to have been included in the bill in the first place. Jamie Greene is speaking to a theme that is similar to one that the committee has been dealing with, which is the trauma that victims experience in the criminal justice system.

There seems to be an omission in the bill. Jamie Greene will not be surprised that I am going to say that it would be difficult to make a judgment on whether this is the right thing to do without having heard from the Parole Board for Scotland, which the committee has had no contact with on this. Maybe, in summing up, Jamie could say whether he has had any discussions with the Parole Board. I am not familiar with the full processes of what the Parole Board does or does not do.

In my opinion, it exposes the failures of the stage 2 process as a whole that we are so bound by the Scotland Act 1998, and I believe that some committees in the Parliament are giving thought to how to change that. However, this is a good example of a really big issue that is not included in the bill, and we cannot easily take evidence before stage 3 on something that has now proved to be really important.

Finally, since we started dealing with the bill, it has been my opinion that it is far too big. Regardless of our positions on the issues, the committee members will probably testify that there are huge issues contained in this single bill. If we wanted to focus on victims and trauma, I would have thought that there was a case for having a bill on that issue alone and leaving some of the other issues to be dealt with separately.

My quick contribution is to say that, similarly, I am very sympathetic to the subject matter that Pam Gosal, Sharon Dowey and Maggie Chapman have brought to the committee, and I am very grateful to them for doing so.

I think that I am right in saying that the Parliament—in fact, a former Justice Committee—addressed the question of how costly it is to obtain a non-harassment order in the civil courts and said that we need to do more to ensure that, where necessary, the courts could impose them of their own volition. However, we have not made the progress that we should have made. Many women do not even qualify for legal aid—because some benefits are taken into account in that consideration, they lose out.

The principle is definitely right that the court can impose non-harassment orders in cases where things are clear, such as in domestic abuse or sexual offence cases.

I will listen to what the cabinet secretary has to say before deciding on how to vote. I just wanted those members to know that I really appreciate their lodging their amendments and that I am very sympathetic to the subject matter.

The amendments in this group are giving me a bit more cause for concern. It is not that I disagree that remorse should be taken into account, but the amendments are as much to do with the release of prisoners as they are about victims. Again, we have not had much opportunity to understand the whole basis on which prisoners are released, other than that they have the opportunity, once they have served either 50 per cent or two thirds of their sentence, to go to the Parole Board.

Do you happen to know whether remorse is a consideration at the moment? I presume that orders for lifelong restriction do not go through the same process, so they will not be included. I just do not know the answer to that question. I would be surprised if there were no passing discussion, at least, with the Parole Board as to whether remorse was a factor. I know that, in relation to orders for lifelong restriction, psychological reports will be drawn up in which remorse is a factor, because what is being considered is not only the risk to victims but the wider risk to communities. There could be a risk of harm to a victim, to more than one victim or to communities. That is, I imagine, a different consideration, although it is still a question of safety, risk and all the rest of it.

I think that you can see where I am going with this. There is a lot of complexity to the debate. If the Government is going to come back on this at stage 3, as I think it will be doing on the other amendments, I will be content with that. However, I feel that there is much more to the issue than the impact on victims; it is about the whole mechanism and process of release for prisoners. To be honest, it surprises me that the amendment was allowed, because it is about the release of prisoners. However, it would be helpful to know if that is already a consideration by the Parole Board.

This is a long intervention.