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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 September 2025
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Displaying 1858 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

I am sorry, but that does not make any sense. If that was one factor, would it be fair to say that the decision maker could, under the policy, have said, “Okay. I have looked at that. This person has self-identified as a woman. I’m going to segregate the person in Barlinnie until we decide where the person is going to go”? Could that have been a decision or not?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

They checked that with headquarters.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

You are talking about hindsight.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

This is—I hope—a straightforward question. It follows on from Katy Clark’s question about who made the decision and all that. I am not trying to get you to say who made it, but I did not understand something.

There is a segregated unit in Barlinnie for sex offenders; I have actually been to the cells for individual solitary confinement. Why did the decision maker not just hold the prisoner in the segregated unit in the estate for assessment? That is a really important question, to answer now or to come back to the committee on at some point.

Is the problem that the 2014 policy is a self-ID policy, so you did not have a choice? It is really important to get to the bottom of that. If we want to move on from this, and if there are genuine lessons to be learned, we need to know why.

This seems like an obvious and sensible question that any member of the public would ask. Why did the prisoner need to go to Cornton Vale to be assessed and segregated? We have heard that there was no risk to women, but they could have been segregated somewhere else. I have a clear question. Why did the decision maker not hold Isla Bryson in another part of the male estate until a decision was made—albeit that I might not have liked the decision?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

The decision maker chose not to do that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

Do you know why?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

I am sorry, but I am not accepting that. You have already told the committee that the decision was signed off by headquarters, so nobody second guessed. Which is it? In evidence to the committee, you said that the decision was signed off by headquarters. Am I right?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

So how was it second guessed?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

You seem to be questioning what was said. Again, I point to the statement that was made by Rhona Hotchkiss, the former governor of Cornton Vale. She said:

“... it is always an issue to have trans women in with female prisoners.”

That means that it affects not only one prisoner. Do you accept what Rhona Hotchkiss said?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

So, what was said is not true. The problem I have is that, every time I ask a question, I get management speak in response, and it is the same with the deputy governor. I am trying to get some clarity. Rhona Hotchkiss has been the governor of Cornton Vale, so do you think her assessment is fair?