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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 December 2025
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Displaying 456 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

I am completely muddled about the levels of proof. We are using the term “criminal” when we are referring to licensing, which is a civil matter with civil remedies and breaches.

Let me put to you a proposition, so that I can understand what will happen. The licensing scheme is in place, and the police receive a report of an incident and check it out. Let us assume that there is absolutely sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed that meets the standard of proof in the criminal courts, with the onus on the prosecution. Would the police simply bypass NatureScot and go to criminal prosecution? Please do not answer now, Mr Lynn—that is just my first proposition.

In my second proposition, the police get a phone call and carry out an investigation, but do not think that there is sufficient evidence to take it to the procurator fiscal. Do you then take the matter to NatureScot, which will look at what you have and decide whether, on the civil balance of probability, the licence should be suspended?

That is what I am trying to get into my head. The word “crime” is being used in the context of both NatureScot and Police Scotland, and what I need to know and what landowners would also need to know is: how does that work?

There you go—that was quite short.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

I understand the difference. However, would Police Scotland bypass NatureScot if it thought, “Well—it’s right in front of us here”?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

So, you would go to NatureScot, but I take it that the prosecution would take priority over anything else.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

So, it would be a dual process: Police Scotland would go straight to prosecution, and in the meantime NatureScot would have suspended the licence, I take it.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

Possibly. Thank you—I think that I understand it now.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

We have not touched on appellant procedure. That would deal with the ECHR. Depending on circumstances, how quickly might an appeal be made against revocation or suspension of a licence or a variation of the terms of a licence? It is very important that, when a judgment has been made, a person has a right to appeal on cause shown.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

We can find out. It is always available to us to find something more specific for stage 2.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

The licensing provisions in the bill say that a licence will be granted when Scottish ministers

“are satisfied that ... muirburn is necessary ... and ... no other method of vegetation control is available.”

I would have preferred the word “appropriate” to “available”.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

“Appropriate” is a better word.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 June 2023

Christine Grahame

There have been assurances, and I presume that they are something that the Government—or any Government—will not be able to renege on. There have obviously been discussions.