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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 June 2025
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Displaying 1041 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

Yes. Peter, when was the constitution published?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

The constitution is referenced in the regulations. Today, we are agreeing the regulations in which the constitution is rooted. The legislation and regulations are a matter for the Parliament. It is now for the PNBS to agree its own day-to-day operations. I will just check with officials that I have articulated that correctly.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

So some of this is just about practicalities.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

On the specific point about deadlock, I think that I have spoken effectively to the principal point and the importance of arbitration and acting in good faith. We would accept any arbitration decision, other than in very exceptional circumstances, as you would expect any Government to articulate.

I also addressed the issue that the regulations are for the Parliament and the constitution is rooted in the regulations. The constitution has been consulted on and negotiated, and we have come to a consensus agreement on it.

I will ask officials to talk about the guide, how it will be developed and the type of issues that it will address.

I think that your other point was a worry about the arbitration process being stifled and blockers being put on it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

The whole purpose of arbitration is to avoid deadlock, and the whole purpose of having an independent chair is to bring the sides together if there is an inability to agree. Normally, it would be for both sides to agree that a matter needs to go to arbitration. If the independent chair thinks that one side or the other is blocking procedures, they have the power to kick off the arbitration process.

I will hand over to officials to give Mr Greene more detail.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

The purpose of a PNB is to enable that negotiation to take place. I am not talking about specific pay claims or, indeed, specific circumstances, because any processes that exist must be respected and must have integrity. However, this is about ensuring that, for negotiating partners, whether they be doing annual pay deals or seeking something longer term—indeed, some parts of the public sector have negotiated multiyear or two-year pay deals—we continue to have in place arrangements that are solid and fair, particularly to police officers, who cannot withdraw their labour.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

It is part of the package. The constitution is referenced in the regulations and the policy note. The date that I have for it is May 2023.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

It is not news to the Government. It is a matter for the Parliament, in terms of law and regulation. The lawyer here will keep me right, but it would not be a matter for the PNBS to change its constitution.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

With respect, I am happy to go over the issues in more detail, but it is for the Parliament to pass regulations. It would not be the norm if the PNBS were changing its own constitution. It could, of course, come back to ministers at some point, in the fullness time, if there were something inoperable about the constitution that could be changed. However, I am conscious that time and effort have been invested to come to an agreement on the constitution and, bearing in mind the 2016 act, MSPs would be well within their rights to be somewhat concerned if matters of the constitution of this very important body were not dealt with by the Parliament via regulations but were dealt with in a more ad hoc way.

10:30  

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 June 2023

Angela Constance

First, let me say that I have no objection to answering any questions from committee members.

I will respond to the convener in a way that I hope will be helpful and clear. I will do my best to be succinct. The process that we are all now following was set out in the 2016 act. In terms of the constitution, the information was made available with the papers on the instrument, although people may or may not choose to read or print links or whatever.

I do not think that there are many more ways in which I can commit to the value and importance that the Government sees in arbitration and, as always, in working in good faith and as a good actor.

There are some matters in the correspondence from the Scottish Police Federation that could be addressed through the guide that will be agreed by all the PNBS members. With the greatest of respect to the SPF, my understanding was that it was broadly content, and I am conscious that other partners and staff associations were also involved in the process and that they have not made any representations to the committee, to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, we have a situation in which people are happy to move forward. As with any set of arrangements, people—whether it is the Scottish Police Federation or any other party—have the right to bore down into the detail, but in my view that will now be a matter for the guide that all partners will work collaboratively to develop.

I think that it is time that we moved on to have a Police Negotiating Board for Scotland, as opposed to using the legacy arrangement of a UK body. It is my view, and that of the Government, that a police negotiating board scenario, with the protection of arbitration built in, is far preferable to a police pay review body, which is what exists down south. That is not a negotiating body. It can make recommendations to the Home Secretary, because it is accountable to the Home Secretary but, of course, there is a pattern of recommendations not being accepted.

I think that I have put on the record in the strongest possible terms that we want to, and will continue to, enter into all this in good faith and will accept the principles and purpose of arbitration.