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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 2800 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

Mr Rennie has a supplementary question on that theme.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

We have heard a lot about a phased approach, but we have not been given a timescale as to how long it may take for the big new organisation to be embedded. We heard from Mike Burns of Social Work Scotland that culture change can take

“five, 10 or 15 years.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 9 November 2022; c 20.]

Mr Stewart, you mentioned earlier that legislation and regulation do not bring about a change in culture. Given that it has taken so long for the integration legislation to get to this point, and it still has problems, do you think that all these years of change and adjustment are worth it? Should we not be focusing here and now on what we can improve on now?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

Thank you, Mr Stewart—we have had some informal sessions with service delivery organisations, albeit from the voluntary sector, so we are aware of that.

We have a final question from Willie Rennie.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

I thank you all for your time today. The public part of our meeting is now an end, and we will consider our final agenda items in private.

11:12 Meeting continued in private until 11:58.  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

Good morning, and welcome to the 29th meeting in 2022 of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. We have received apologies from Stephen Kerr.

The first item on our agenda is our third evidence session on the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. We will hear from Clare Haughey, the Minister for Children and Young People, and Kevin Stewart, the Minister for Mental Wellbeing and Social Care. Joining them from the Scottish Government are: Paul Beaton, the unit head of children’s services; Iona Colvin, the chief social work adviser; and Donna Bell, the director of social care and national care service development.

The ministers will each give a short opening statement. We will start with Mr Stewart, followed by Ms Haughey.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

I thank you both for your opening statements.

In our previous two committee meetings, we heard from an extensive list of stakeholders. No one is looking for children’s services to be included in the national care service; no one is demanding that. Most witnesses were ambivalent at best, and they were overwhelmingly concerned that that is a giant distraction that will get in the way of them doing their work. Can you honestly say that that will not be a bureaucratic monster that will get in the way of children’s services providing the care that is needed? Why are those who are on the front line so unconvinced that that is the right approach?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

I can bring in Iona Colvin, but I remind the panel that we are focusing on the children’s services element. We know that there is extensive work going on with the national care service across adult services, but we really need to drill down on children’s services, on which Stephanie Callaghan has questions. If we can pick up your questions now, Stephanie, that would be super.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

I will interject again here—sorry, minister. I wonder whether Miss Haughey might want to respond to that question before we move on.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

I think that we have that information, minister, but thank you for the offer. Ms Colvin’s answer explains some of that thread, which I know that we will pick up later with questions from Mr Marra.

Everyone who has come to the committee and presented evidence has told us that structural change is not the answer. Ross McGuffie from North Lanarkshire told the committee last week that

“Transformative change takes ... time ... Sometimes, we can end up reaching the next restructure before the current one has had a chance to get to where it needs to be.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 16 November; c 10.]

I know how complex the legislation around IJBs is, so I recognise that that is perhaps not the answer and that we need to do something. However, would it not be better to improve the current system and to take our time investing in what is taking place now rather than perhaps going through change of this magnitude? My concern lies in the huge structural change, which could mean that you focus on getting managers in place instead of focusing on those who are already working with children and families to deliver services.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Sue Webber

If the answer from Ms Colvin will respond to the specifics that Mr Marra is looking for, that would be helpful.