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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 July 2025
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Displaying 1808 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

Today, we conclude our oral evidence sessions on the Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill at stage 1. I welcome Graham Simpson, who is the member in charge of the bill. He is joined by Ben McKendrick, senior clerk in the Scottish Parliament’s non-Government bills unit, and Catriona Lyle, who is from the Scottish Parliament’s legal services office. Graham, before we move to questions from members, would you like to open on the purpose of the bill and the reasons for it?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 11th meeting in 2025 of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee. I have received apologies from Ruth Maguire, so I welcome Rona Mackay, who is attending as a committee substitute.

Our first item of business is for the committee to agree to take in private item 4, which will be discussion of the evidence on a member’s bill that we are about to hear. Are members content to take that item in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

I cannot imagine that.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

The challenge is in the way that the bill is drafted. There are objective tests to be met, such as being sentenced to imprisonment, and there is no excuse for that. There are then the more subjective behavioural choices. I do not want to use the word “excuses”, because they are not excuses, but there might be explanations for those choices. I am just trying to work out which is the most important from your point of view.

An objective, simply assessed test is that you are in prison. A more subjective test is absence, and if you can give a reason, such as general data protection regulations, privacy, family support and all that, then that is all right. However, the voter from that area is going to say, “They said that that was all right, but they did not say why.”

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

Emma Roddick has a question.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

Right. That is what I am driving at.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

It is the act of losing one’s liberty that occasions the provision.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

Thank you very much for your opening comments, particularly those about a committee member whom we hope to see return in the very near future. Now is the moment for all those people whom you have grilled to open the popcorn and pull their chair forward.

I will kick us off. You answered my first question, on what you would say is the main purpose of recall. I would like to explore that with you a bit. In much of the documentation and, indeed, the representations that you have made today, you have talked specifically about the MSP as an individual and about their behaviour or choices falling below what their electorate could reasonably expect of them. In the bill, you lay out some simple, objective tests to determine whether an MSP has fallen short. There are, however, also subjective tests, such as providing a reasonable explanation for why something has happened. Do you find that a challenge? We would potentially put into legislation something that others—possibly this committee or its future iterations, as your bill suggests—would decide. Are there challenges in relation to giving subjective tests to future committees when the bill also contains simple objective tests in relation to sentencing and things like that? What is your thinking about those two decisions?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

Sorry—I do not mean to cut across you. I think that we will address the specifics of that part of the bill in other questions. I am trying to ask the higher-level question about whether you are content that your bill contains both objective, easily understood reasons for a recall but also subjective assessments on which someone else must make a decision before the recall. Is there a contradiction in that? Are you happy with that? Are you happy that those decisions would go to a future decision-making body?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 June 2025

Martin Whitfield

In essence, that is the application of the balance that I was inquiring about between the objective and the subjective.