Chamber and committees

In summing up, I want to say a few words about Stephen Kerr’s amendments and address the point that Maggie Chapman raised. I also want to address something that Pam Gosal said and the cabinet secretary’s discussion with Paul O’Kane.

I start with Stephen Kerr’s amendments 25 and 34, the aim of which is to provide clarity and ensure that there is fairness and balance. Amendment 25 would introduce a requirement for neutrality and ensure that the child’s view is truly their own and not the product of subtle or unintended pressure from the school environment. Amendment 34 would provide an important reassurance in the wider context of family law. It does not contradict anything in the bill and would provide additional safeguards.

In relation to Maggie Chapman’s question, there is a balance. There are conflicts of rights here. I quoted the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, which the cabinet secretary will be familiar with—she probably knows most of the paragraphs by heart. We should not take away parents’ responsibilities, but the bill drives a coach and horses through those responsibilities. The bill does not cross-check other legislation or consider balance. If the cabinet secretary does not take account of issues such as that, it will lead to bad lawmaking and conflict will arise. Pam Gosal talked at length about parental responsibility and about teachers and schools being left to make really difficult decisions. There needs to be a framework, but the bill lacks one.

Finally, Paul O’Kane asked about conflict. The cabinet secretary said that conflict exists now, but it emerged in the stage 1 inquiry that there is insufficient data. The Scottish Government considered only three education authorities—it did not consider the whole of Scotland. It took a sample and estimated that there could be 4,000 cases. In making a fundamental decision, and in considering the balance of rights between parents and children, it is bad lawmaking to increase burdens on schools.

We will be discussing the importance of data in a further group of amendments, so I will stop there.

Amendment 21 agreed to.

Amendment 22 moved—[Tess White].

What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talking about issues with the faith schools. The cabinet secretary might say that it is only a small number, but it is a very significant number, and those discussions should have taken place before now.

As it was described to us, the bill is very small—I think that it is five pages—but it has huge and wide-ranging ramifications. The amendments were lodged by Stephen Kerr to try to clarify and give some definitions, so I press amendment 9A.

This group, which is on guidance on withdrawals, is about making sure that schools are properly supported to implement the bill and that families can expect a consistent approach across Scotland.

At stage 1, as a committee, we heard clear evidence from schools, local authorities and teachers that, without clear national guidance, the bill risks being applied differently from one area to another. My amendments respond directly to those concerns.

Amendments 36 and 37 seek to strengthen the existing guidance provisions by requiring schools to have a regard to guidance that is published by the Scottish ministers, rather than guidance that may be issued. That would ensure that guidance is not optional, giving schools a clear national framework to follow.

Amendment 41 seeks to place a clear duty on the Scottish ministers by requiring them to prepare and publish statutory guidance on how the new withdrawal process should operate. It also specifies what the guidance must cover, including how to assess a pupil’s maturity, how to handle disagreements, what support is available, what training is needed and how the process will be resourced. Importantly, the amendment would also require the Scottish ministers to consult educational authorities, teachers and parents before the guidance is published, helping to ensure that the guidance is practical and grounded in real experience.

Amendments 57 and 58 would link the guidance directly to commencement. They would ensure that the main provisions of the bill cannot come into force until the guidance has been published. That would avoid schools being expected to implement complex new duties without the tools or support that they need.

I move amendment 36.

Convener, cabinet secretary and committee, the amendments in this group seek to place clear and necessary limits on the scope of the exemption.

Several of the amendments would require that the incompatibility must be created by express and specific statutory wording, not by implication, interference or administrative preference. That is the purpose behind amendments 45, 46 and 48. If the Parliament intends to compel an action that is incompatible with the UNCRC requirements, it should do so openly and explicitly; it should not be left to public authorities to speculate or to interpret ambiguity.

Amendments 47, 49 and 50 seek to add a further essential safeguard. They would require that an exemption may be relied upon only where no reasonable alternative exists that would allow the public authority to act compatibly with the UNCRC. That reflects a basic principle of good governance. It should never be easy or casual for a public authority to set aside a compatibility duty.

Amendment 52 is a stand-alone provision that seeks to reinforce the principle that such exemptions cannot become a catch-all defence. It would prevent section 2 from being used in a way that unnecessarily weakens the compatibility duty or confers broad discretion on ministers or public authorities.

Cabinet Secretary, committee and convener, those amendments do not challenge the existence of a compatibility duty, nor do they challenge the Government’s broad intentions in bringing forward the bill. They simply seek to ensure that an exemption from a human rights obligation is treated with the seriousness that it deserves.

The amendments offer what I hope the cabinet secretary will see as constructive solutions to a problem that the Government has not fully addressed. They would promote clarity, transparency and proportionality, which is a word that the cabinet secretary has used a few times today. They seek to preserve the integrity of the compatibility duty without undermining the Parliament’s ability to legislate in areas where a conflict might genuinely arise. In short, they make section 2 workable, understandable and properly bounded.

I move amendment 45.

Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and custom. The amendments are grounded in what the committee heard at stage 1, when the evidence repeatedly highlighted the need to clearly distinguish between religious observance and religious and moral education. That distinction is well understood in practice but is poorly reflected in the governing legislation.

Amendment 44 would introduce statutory definitions of “religious observance” and of instruction “in religion” or “in religious subjects”. Those definitions reflect the reality of the curriculum for excellence and the experience of our schools. The term “religious observance” refers to “reflective” or “spiritual” activities, while religious and moral education refers to curricular learning about “world religions, belief systems” and “moral reasoning”. Bringing those definitions into statute is not an attempt to change the curriculum but is simply an attempt to ensure that the law accurately reflects what teachers already deliver.

Amendment 20 would work hand in hand with that clarification, ensuring that any requests for withdrawal from religious observance or from religious and moral education would be treated as distinct processes. That point was raised by several contributors during the committee’s evidence sessions. They noted that the bill as drafted risked conflating the two areas, which is something that has already been addressed. Amendment 20 would protect the curricular entitlement of every pupil in Scotland to a religious and moral education, while preserving the long-standing right of withdrawal from religious observance. It would restore coherence and prevent misunderstandings in implementation.

Amendment 9A would add a further technical clarification by confirming that the term “instruction in religion” includes denominational religious education. It would avoid any confusion about how the bill interacts with the existing denominational school settlement and would provide reassurance to parents and communities who rely on those long-established statutory rights.

I say to the convener, the cabinet secretary and the committee that those amendments would not challenge the intentions of the bill but would strengthen it by removing ambiguity and by setting out in clear terms what the law means. The amendments are principled in their purpose and respect the vital role of parents. They would protect the integrity of the curriculum and offer reassurance to teachers and to faith communities that the terminology used in statute will align with what actually happens in schools.

I move amendment 9A.

We received evidence from the legal profession to say that the law is all over the place on age. In certain cases in the justice system, the age is 25; in other cases in Scotland, it is 18; and, in the majority of cases, it is 16. The Greens and Conservatives fundamentally disagree on that. In this case, we believe that parents have the right and the responsibility. I refer members to the parental responsibilities as set out in the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. In relation to a child, the parent has a responsibility to

“safeguard and promote the child’s health, development and welfare”,

and

“to provide, in a manner appropriate to the stage of development of the child ... direction”

and

“guidance”.

There is a reason for that, which is why I have made those proposals through my amendments.

We fundamentally disagree about the age of maturity, but frameworks have to be set; otherwise, it is chaos. It is not fair for the teachers, who are not qualified or trained in this area, to make a decision about maturity. It is not fair on them when parents have the responsibility to decide on the guidance and on what is right for their child.

I hear what the cabinet secretary says about a necessary hurdle, but paragraph 151 of the stage 1 report says that

“Very serious concerns have been presented to this Committee about both Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill”,

and paragraph 154 says that

“That support is, however, still predicated on very significant amendments being made to the Bill”,

which we have not really heard a lot about today. I suppose that amendment 55 would force a proper consultation and impact assessment.

I hear what my colleague Paul O’Kane says about placing a duty on a future education committee of the Parliament, and I understand that, but the two amendments are about good lawmaking and they would help to ensure that the bill is implemented in a way that is proportionate, workable and informed by evidence. I will therefore press amendment 55 and I intend to move amendment 56.

The amendments are about basic transparency and making sure that we understand how the system is working in practice. At stage 1, we heard concerns that, without proper data, it will be difficult to know whether the bill is having unintended effects on children, families or schools, and the amendments address that gap.

Amendment 35 makes a small but important technical change by linking the reporting duty to the new definitions in the bill so that data on withdrawals is recorded consistently and clearly. That would help to ensure that information is accurate and comparable across schools and local authorities.

Amendment 39 would introduce a clear reporting requirement by requiring schools to report annually on requests for withdrawal from religious instruction and religious observance. It also requires reporting on how often pupils objected to a parental request and how often those objections were upheld. The amendment does not ask schools to record beliefs or motivations. It simply collects information on how the process is being used and where the disagreements are arising.

I move amendment 35.

Cabinet secretary, I hope that you will be pleased to hear that, based on what you have just said—that you will take the amendments away, consider them, review them and then come back—I will not press my amendment. Thank you for that, and I look forward to working with you on that.

Amendment 35, by agreement, withdrawn.

Cabinet secretary, convener and committee, these amendments are about making sure that we properly understand the impact of the bill before it comes into force, rather than dealing with problems after the fact. My colleague Paul O’Kane has referred to the fact that we have just over three months until the end of the parliamentary session and it feels that the bill is being rushed through, but it is not a simple bill.

At stage 1, we heard concerns about workload, resources and the effect on relationships between schools, parents and pupils. The amendments would ensure that those concerns are properly considered in advance. I have raised the point that only three educational authorities were consulted—I stress that, because it shocked me.

Amendment 55 would require the Scottish ministers to carry out and publish a pre-commencement impact assessment on the likely effects of the bill. That assessment would have to look specifically at the impact on families, parents, children, teaching staff and support staff. That matters, because the bill introduces new duties and new processes for schools, and those changes will affect real people in real settings.

Amendment 56 would make sure that the impact assessment is considered by a parliamentary committee with responsibility for education before the act is commenced. That would give Parliament an opportunity to scrutinise the findings and ensure that any risks or pressures have been properly thought through.

I move amendment 55.