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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 November 2025
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Displaying 1445 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

But data is important.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Good morning, minister. I would like to clarify something that you said in your opening statement. It is good that you are providing leadership on the public sector equality duty, and I thank you for that. However, will you wait until the committee has published its report before you draft the guidelines that you said you are going to publish?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

You could include education, health, and prisons in that.

I will quote your letter, dated February 2025, to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. In the letter, you highlighted the importance of single-sex spaces and for public sector providers to design

“policies which take into account the rights of all affected protected characteristic groups”.

That goes back to your point about balance. In the EHRC’s view, to what extent has the Scottish Government got wrong the balance of protections between the different protected groups?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

We are talking about the whole thing. You said last month that the policies have not taken

“into account the rights of all affected protected characteristic groups”.

That is a very powerful statement to have made, so I want you to elaborate on which protected characteristics you think have been missed out, if any.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

You felt the need to issue that letter in February

“because of a particular on-going situation.”

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Okay. This is my final question.

In your view, to what extent does the Scottish Government’s interpretation of the terms “sex”, “gender” and “woman” make it difficult for public authorities to meet their responsibilities under the PSED? I know that Jennifer Laughland said that the Supreme Court judgment on the For Women Scotland case might provide clarity. Are you waiting until that comes before you can provide extra clarity and guidance?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

When we conducted our consultation exercise, we got a huge amount of input. In the previous evidence session, I said that 80 per cent of the respondents said that the PSED was not being implemented, and they gave the committee a lot of information on why they thought that. Before the cake is cooked, will you share with us the ingredients that are going into it?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

It might be a request, then. Before you put water through the pipe, you need to check the pipe. Minister, if the committee has an important role in your work, my request is that you consider providing any guidance to the committee first. I will leave that request with you to take away.

Last week, Vic Valentine, who was representing Scottish Trans, said:

“we are always clear that our advice and guidance is not legal advice ... We would never say that we were giving legal advice to organisations ... We do not provide legal advice.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 56.]

That was said last week and it is included in the feedback in the committee’s papers. However, the following day, ahead of the debate on single-sex spaces in the public sector, Scottish Trans sent MSPs a briefing that said on at least two occasions that it would be unlawful not to allow trans people to access single-sex spaces in certain situations, which legal experts have refuted.

On one day, in front of the committee, Scottish Trans said one thing, but the next day, it issued a briefing that basically said the opposite. Minister, do you believe that it is appropriate for activist organisations to offer guidance that leaves public sector bodies vulnerable to costly legal challenges? Will the Scottish Government, as a funder of such organisations, distance itself from such guidance?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you. I will probably write to you after the meeting.