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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 November 2025
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Displaying 1445 contributions

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Meeting of the Parliament

Sexual Violence (Hospitals)

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Tess White

Will the minister take an intervention?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Finally, I have noted that you have said that you want to provide leadership on the PSED and that you want to put your money where your mouth is, yet 80 per cent of respondents to the committee’s call for evidence said that public bodies do not understand and have not implemented the PSED properly. So, there is an issue with public bodies. During the previous evidence session, the EHRC said that there was an issue with the education sector and we have highlighted an issue with hospitals. I have also talked about big issues with Police Scotland.

In relation to the lack of implementation of the PSED, your leadership and putting your money where your mouth is, should you and/or the Scottish Government not suspend the pay rises of the leadership of those public sector bodies that are allegedly in breach of their duties? As a head of HR, if there were a specific issue in a part of an organisation, I could not take money off people, but I could and would suspend pay rises. If you have concerns and you are providing leadership, would it not be a practical thing to say, “Hang on a minute, let’s just suspend pay increases and review the implementation of PSED?”

12:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Before I ask my main question, minister, I want to pick up on something that you said about Police Scotland. You said that Police Scotland is “completely independent”, yet the organisations advising it on equalities policy guidance are, in large part, funded by the Scottish Government. You used the words “dignity”, “fairness” and “proportionate”. I note that there is an organisation called Police SEEN UK, whose views and input the head of HR for Police Scotland would not entertain; Police Scotland would rather have input from organisations funded in large part by the Scottish Government. Given that, I question the use of the word “independent” in relation to Police Scotland. There are huge issues with Police Scotland right now.

I am happy to write separately to you on that, minister.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

I suppose that my key point is that you have stated that Police Scotland is “completely independent”—that is what you said—but on policies in relation to equalities, and, I would add, the implementation of the PSED, it is getting its guidance from organisations that are funded in large part by the Scottish Government. So, my question is: how can Police Scotland be independent?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

I am interested in the balance of protections for different groups, which we explored with the previous panel, and the conflict of rights that has emerged. You use the words “dignity”, “fairness” and “proportionate”. I agree that those three words are very important. Is it the Scottish Government’s view that public bodies can provide for single-sex services or spaces as a matter of policy; that is, not on an individual or case-by-case basis?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you, Jennifer. I interpret that as meaning that it is almost not a hard target in the objectives of chief executives of hospitals or councils. The councils are under financial pressures, the hospitals have huge financial pressures, yet the floodgates will be opened on non-implementation or interpretation of the law, and the costs could go into millions—for Scotland, it could be billions. Would you not consider suspending the pay increases until the outcome of this? If you say no, you are saying that it is very difficult and that you have not got the levers at your disposal to implement something that is really important in this space, which is dignity, fairness and a balance of proportionality in relation to the nine protected characteristics.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

When we looked at the feedback from the committee’s call for evidence on the PSED, we found that 80 per cent of the respondents indicated that public bodies do not understand or have a limited understanding of the duty. Such a high figure was very surprising to us. The EHRC’s submission says that

“the setting of equality outcomes”

is

“not always informed by robust evidence”,

which is a cause for concern. Do you believe that it is appropriate for activist organisations to offer guidance that leaves public sector bodies vulnerable to legal challenge?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

I think that you have answered the question, thank you. That is really helpful.

You talked about organisations that offer. What about the organisations that receive? You used the word “balance”, so do you mean that those organisations must receive balanced feedback?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Do you agree—a yes or no answer would be helpful—that impact assessments of policies or policy changes that affect sex-based rights should involve input from those with the sex-based rights?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

What about balance and prioritising one protected characteristic over another?