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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 2620 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

What would you say to those local authorities whose budgets are coming up soon and whose capital plans contain new care homes? Why on earth should a local authority keep a new care home in its capital plan when the bill is causing so much uncertainty?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Local authorities are providing care just now. Given that it has been a few weeks since COSLA submitted those figures, should you not have had those conversations before coming to the committee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

I guess that that highlights that the process itself is wrong, because that discussion should have been had with COSLA before we had even got to this stage. Obviously, we disagree about that—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

In evidence to the committee, the witness from CIPFA said:

“Mechanisms are in place to look at the quality of services and drive that up. The question is how we build on the existing arrangements.

Integration joint boards have been up and running for seven years. That is not a long time. There is also a lot of legislation that has been held in reserve that could be brought in to take the boards on to the next step. However, it seems that we are throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting again.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Accountability Committee, 25 October 2022; c 29.]

I presume that you disagree with that statement. Can you explain why extra powers around social care cannot be given to the IJBs?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

From what we have heard so far, it seems that it could have been done the other way round. We could have had the co-design first, and then the introduction of a bill that we would all have understood much more.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Why would they have said that that was not the right way? I do not understand that, because we would have had more detail.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

You have said that we need to get this right.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

There are aspects such as IT, which Daniel Johnson mentioned earlier. There is no provision at all for that in there. You said that you did not want to pluck figures—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

I agree, but it might not be a statutory duty for local authorities in the future. With local government having to make difficult decisions, the uncertainty caused by the bill might make the situation in care worse. My question is: why would local authorities invest now?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Did you ask COSLA about those figures?