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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 1491 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

That would be useful for the committee and for the permanent secretary and leaders of departments.

Part of the commentary recognised that there would be pay growth, which you have outlined today, and that we have to understand affordability in the other areas. On that basis, commentary about the medium-term financial strategy was that some areas are light on costings—the national care service and childcare have been mentioned by a number of colleagues. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that there is little sense of how the gap will be closed. Having read the strategy and listened to you—if I can characterise it this way—it feels a little bit like you are hoping that something will come along.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

Can you say anything more specific?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

Thank you for all the information that you have given so far, cabinet secretary. On 16 May, we took evidence from the permanent secretary on a range of issues regarding operation of the civil service. One issue that the committee is interested in is the status of the resource spending review and the objective of returning the public sector workforce to its pre-Covid size. The permanent secretary talked a little about progress in that area. When we asked about the status of that policy within Government, he said:

“I do not think that that has been publicly stated by the new Government.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 16 May 2023; c 36.]

Can you give us clarity on whether that approach remains the policy of the Scottish National Party Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Medium-term Financial Strategy

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

I will return to the issue of the workforce, if that is okay. The resource spending review said that the Government was going to seek

“to return the”

overall

“size of the public sector workforce ... to pre-COVID ... levels”.

You are saying that you have not baked any of those figures relating to policy intent into your forecast. Is that correct?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

On workforce planning, you have said in your submission that you have “around 9,400” permanently contracted full-time staff. Is that correct?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

So you think that your ability to meet any broader intent in that regard is limited until we get into reform. Is that a process that needs to be led more—with more indication—and perhaps in the direction that the convener talked about? Would it involve more intent from the Government? Is that what you mean when you talk about the need to “get into reform”?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

But you have had consistent budget deficits for the past six years, and perhaps longer, prior to the pandemic.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Medium-term Financial Strategy

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

What does that evidence tell you?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

On the broader issue of how you deal with a rapidly ageing population, are you advocating a technological approach to changing services instead of talking about, say, which areas of primary care might be addressed, how we might piece all of that together and so on? I am trying to think about this in a slightly broader way by looking at the driving forces, but you seem quite focused on the technology aspect.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 6 June 2023

Michael Marra

In some of the evidence that we have had so far, there has been a little bit of dubiety about the Government’s absolute position on managing the workforce. The resource spending review, which came out a while back under the previous cabinet secretary for finance, committed the Government to reducing head count to pre-pandemic levels. However, you seem to be indicating that your intent is to remove non-full-time-equivalent permanent staff by trying to manage down your bank nurses and other contractors. Is such a characterisation right?