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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 22 September 2025
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Displaying 774 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you very much, Senator Doherty. I have one last point, on the back of my colleague Fulton MacGregor speaking about age. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

You know that we are looking at changing the age for a GRC from 18 to 16 years old. We have heard from many people on that—some are for and some are against. On the one hand, there is the fact that, at 16 or 17, someone can go ahead and get married, and they can vote. On the other hand, people have concerns because they feel that those people are not yet adults who are able to make such decisions. At that age, people cannot get a credit card, for example—certain things cannot happen in their life.

What is your view on balance in that regard, if we go down to 16? I know that, in your legislation, that age cohort requires both parental consent and medical evidence in order to be granted the court order that is required. Perhaps you can touch on that a little bit.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning to the panel. Thank you for your opening statements and the information that you have provided. On the back of what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy has been talking about, what are your thoughts on the system being open to abuse by bad-faith actors who wish to gain access to single-sex spaces; and what are your thoughts on specific concerns for women of faith?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good afternoon, panel, and thank you for your opening statements. My questions are about the potential for these reforms to allow bad-faith actors to obtain GRCs more easily. The self-ID-based gender recognition system in Victoria, Australia, includes additional checks and safeguards for applicants such as registered sex offenders and prisoners. Are you aware of any other international examples of such additional checks? Do you believe that those additional checks would provide an important additional safeguard?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

You say that a trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man. How do you feel about religious people—minority groups out there—who feel that their religion will be impacted if somebody else is in that space? We heard in one of our private sessions that that would exclude more women and girls from minority groups. I do not know whether you have an example, but it would be good to hear your thoughts on why minority groups would not be affected if a trans woman came into a changing room, space or service.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

I have one more question. Are there any international comparisons, whether from Europe or outside Europe, that you have made with regard to religious rights? Obviously we have to ensure that we do not take anyone’s rights away, whether they be trans or religious rights, and that we work in a balanced way. Have you experienced or seen anything out there that you can speak about with regard to balancing both sets of rights, whether it be to single-sex spaces or single-sex services?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Is there anything that you want to add, Dr Dietz?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Let me be very clear, Peter—I am in no way saying that it is trans people who are these bad-faith actors. Unfortunately there are such people out there—it is not the trans people. I am focusing on this, because people have asked the question. People might say that they are trans and use that, which is absolutely wrong, and these bad-faith actors might end up thinking that, if they have the GRC, they have something that they can use to go into these places. That is why I am asking about safeguards to ensure that we do not let these people in and that we are fair. In no way am I saying that any trans people are like that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Okay. Could I hear from Barbara, please?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, Cathy. Victor Madrigal-Borloz spoke about how the bill will bring lead to a process of legal recognition that is quick and widely available.

Do you perceive any ripple effects in the future from having more numbers coming through and having a process that is easier to access? Will it have more of an effect on other groups, whether they are minority religious groups or other groups? Do you forecast anything coming up that will open up more issues or around people sounding off about their concerns in relation to the bill?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, Cathy. Victor—do you have anything to add on that?