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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 July 2025
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Displaying 984 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

I am not asking you to refer to individuals, but at what level within the service would that decision be taken? Who would take that decision?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

We do not have a lot of time, so maybe you could answer the question, which is about whether recommendations were identified in the lessons learned review that were not recognised in that very long process.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

Can I interject? You are an experienced witness, and you have appeared in front of the committee on many occasions. We need answers. I am not asking you to talk about individuals. You say that the policy was adhered to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

Given the facts as we understand them, which I think we all agree on, and given the situation on 24 and 25 January—we do not need to talk about the individual—why was that person not transferred into the male estate and held in segregation there pending the multidisciplinary risk assessment?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

Are you telling us that the policy from 2014 has been that an operational decision is taken on the basis of how the individual defines themselves at that point, irrespective of whether a multidisciplinary risk assessment has taken place?

09:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

The 2014 policy has been under review for a number of years and you have gone through a very quick lessons learned review in relation to this particular incident. Have recommendations been identified in the lessons learned review that were not identified in all the review work that has been happening over the past few years in relation to the 2014 policy?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

Convener, given that witnesses have said that they are not aware of concerns that have been raised before, can I briefly ask whether they are aware of some concerns that are currently being raised?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

I will be very brief. There are three issues that I want to put to you about which concerns are being raised. First, in relation to individuals currently in the estate, we understand that individuals will no longer be moved. Where fresh charges are brought, if those charges are of a violent or sexual nature and regardless of whether the charges relate to crimes against boys, men, girls or women, what approach will be taken?

Concerns have been raised with us, as politicians, about searches. For example, there are concerns about women prison officers being asked to conduct searches on individuals with male genitalia and, indeed, male prison officers being asked to conduct searches on trans men with female genitalia. Concerns are also being raised about the safety of trans men on the estate and the duty of care that you have when trans men are being kept on the male estate. Are you aware of those concerns and will you either respond today or get back to us after the meeting on those issues, given that you are saying that you are not aware of them and given the fact that it is people within the system who are raising those concerns with us? Are you aware of those concerns?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

I want to go back to the lessons learned review and what actually happened on 24 and 25 January. The facts as we understand it are that, when the offences took place and when the individual was initially charged, they were a man and had not self-defined as a woman at that point, but thereafter they self-defined as a woman. You say that the outcome of the review is that the 2014 policy was adhered to. Obviously, we have not seen the full lessons learned review; we have just seen a summary, but the summary is that the policy was adhered to. However, I think that you are also saying that the multidisciplinary assessment had not taken place as of 24 or 25 January.

That is our understanding of the position. What we do not understand is why the individual was not transferred to Barlinnie and held in segregation there pending the multidisciplinary risk assessment.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Katy Clark

I am not asking you to identify individuals, but at what level was the decision taken in the case that we are discussing?