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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 July 2025
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Displaying 984 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Delivering Scottish Social Security

Meeting date: 30 November 2023

Katy Clark

The paper in which you reflect on your experiences is really helpful. You refer to Westminster’s

“less than glorious track record”

on social security benefits. It is fair to say that many of us have quite high expectations of what might be possible in Scotland. Indeed, in your paper, you talk about those

“high expectations bumping up against”

implicit and explicit constraints.

I am somebody who looks at outcomes. One of the surprises to me is, despite what the cabinet secretary said earlier, the frustration and experience of many claimants, who do not feel that the outcomes are much different from before. They still have to wait lengthy periods for benefits and, sometimes, those benefits are not granted.

There are two categories, I suppose. There is the creation of new benefits such as the Scottish child payment, and there is the migration of existing benefits. In relation to the latter, what are the lessons from our experiences so far about how we do that better—we do not want to just mirror what comes from down south—and how do we speed up the process to get to a better outcome? I know that a lot of that is about money, but perhaps we can put money to one side and focus on the aspects that are not about money.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 November 2023

Katy Clark

Perhaps it is not helpful to get into the current benefits. To a large extent, you have simply mirrored what is happening down south, which many of us hoped would not be the position. Our hope was that we would be doing something better. However, let us not get into that discussion. Let us focus on whether the employment injuries benefit is fit for purpose

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

No. We can think about that issue later. That is helpful.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

No. The composition of the council is a wide issue, but I fully understand the points that Linda is making.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

My question is for Linda Somerville and is about the composition of the council. The STUC submission suggests that 50 per cent of the body should be trade union representatives. I appreciate that different unions operate in different sectors and will have knowledge of different occupations, but I ask Linda to explain why 50 per cent is the right level and say a bit more about what the overall composition of the body should be. We understand that the United Kingdom body is dominated by people from scientific and academic backgrounds.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

My question picks up on some of the evidence that we have already heard. We know that the United Kingdom body is already considering many of the issues discussed. Covid has been mentioned by Norman Provan more than once, and long Covid has been discussed, too. There are obviously significant issues around cancer and other conditions that relate to firefighters, and the issue of women’s occupational health has been strongly emphasised in this evidence session.

It is a concern that, if the proposed council is a scientific body—a committee or body made up of academics—it would simply be duplicating work that is currently carried out by IIAC, without producing different outcomes. We are trying to understand what the added value of the new body might be if it is considering the same issues. Noting what you have said already, do you believe that there would be different outcomes if the composition of the body was different? Are you suggesting that the evidence that would be considered would not be purely scientific, and that there would be other evidence?

I invite Linda Somerville to respond first, as she is representing the STUC.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

No.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

I am asking how we can avoid duplication with the work that is going on at a UK level and how we ensure that there is added value. You have covered a lot of that already, but the committee is concerned, in particular, about how we avoid duplication.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

I will ask about how we apply knowledge and the test that SEIAC would apply. There has been mention of reasonable certainty and the double-risk test. How should the test that the council would apply be developed? Would the council itself do that? Does the Parliament need to set it in legislation? Considering other European models, how do you suggest that Scotland approaches developing that test? You might recommend a test or the process by which one might be developed.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

The bill suggests a council of 12 members. Is that the right size? Has anyone given that any thought? That might be something that the STUC has considered, given that it made a submission about the number of trade union representatives who should be involved.