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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 1537 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

I am very happy to make an intervention, if the cabinet secretary is willing to take one.

I fully appreciate that you do not have the money from consequentials yet. However, I understand that you already have the money from the benefit on the basis of its being a universal benefit—although I appreciate that there will now be an adjustment. The principle is that money was announced in July as a consequence of the UK Parliament’s decision to pass regulations that focused winter fuel payments only on those who were entitled to claim pension credit. As a consequence, £0.5 billion of additional money was put into the household support fund in Scotland. Therefore, if money has been announced to help poorer pensioners who have lost out as a result of a decision to means test the winter fuel payment, the principle should be that that money, which has been given to the Scottish Government for that reason, should be passed to those poorest pensioners. Do you not agree with that principle?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

Cabinet secretary, why do you feel that you have no choice but to follow the UK Government policy on this matter?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

The deputy convener probably also heard me say that it was quite clear what the consequentials were in relation to the announcement from July—they were £0.5 billion at a UK level for the household support fund. We know that that means a £41 million consequential for the Scottish Government.

As the deputy convener will know, my colleague Paul O’Kane, as our Scottish Labour policy lead on this issue, has consistently asked for that money to go to the poorest pensioners in Scotland and to people who are losing out as a result of the decision at Westminster, and he has suggested that that could perhaps be done by councils. Does Bob Doris accept that we know—and have known since July—that there is £41 million, but we are still waiting for confirmation of the precise figure in relation to yesterday’s budget?

I myself have a figure, but I do not know whether it is accurate. We know that there is £41 million, but we might have a sum that is considerably more. Does he accept that?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

Will the deputy convener take an intervention? I do not know if it is appropriate to intervene on the member in his capacity as deputy convener.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

I am sure that other members will pick up some of those themes. Thank you.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

In the time available, to what extent did you explore other options?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

Cabinet secretary, in the context of scrutinising these regulations, to what extent did you look at what is happening south of the border, and in particular at what councils are doing? In July, half a billion pounds of additional support to councils in England was announced to help them to support fuel poverty, and I believe that further money was announced yesterday.

To what extent have you looked at what additional support is being provided down south, particularly for pensioners who are experiencing fuel poverty?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

I quite understand that you might want to speak about some of the things that you have done, but I am asking about the extent to which you have looked at what some councils down south are doing, where there are a number of different approaches. In the context of the policy and regulations that we are considering today, I want to know the extent to which you have looked at those. Have you asked for briefings, or been briefed, on what is happening south of the border?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Katy Clark

The committee is dealing with these regulations today, but I wish to note my concern that the cabinet secretary has not been able to say more about the plans in Scotland in light of the £0.5 billion of additional funds that were made available in England for household support. We know that some councils in England are using that money to make payments to the many pensioners who lost out as a result of the Westminster Government’s decision to end certain winter fuel payments. I do not have the figure for the additional funds that were made available yesterday. Once the cabinet secretary is clear about the implications of yesterday’s budget for that aspect of policy, it would be interesting to hear about them.

We have to consider the regulations that are before us, and take a decision on them, but I say to the cabinet secretary that more could be done, despite the decision that has been taken at Westminster. I hope that she will be in a position to consider that in detail, by looking at what is happening down south, what happened with funding in July, and what emerged from yesterday’s budget, to see what more could be done in Scotland this winter.