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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 June 2025
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Displaying 1905 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I thank the convener for that intervention. Considering that it is nearly 10 pm, any clarification on anything that we have discussed at any point is helpful.

I maintain my concern that, without amendment 351, we would not have a mechanism. Even if it were a short process, I believe that we need something to ensure that we can be confident and comfortable that the people who are at the top of the organisation that will be set up by the bill, should it be passed, have the skills and integrity, and the confidence of the public, to take forward the qualifications body in the way that we need them to, given what we have all been through.

On that basis, I am not yet convinced that I should withdraw the amendment.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

We should remember that the six-month period is not the period for which some of the board members will have been in post. They will have been in post for quite a bit longer than six months, and that includes those who are being recruited to the new organisation, which has not yet been set up.

I do not think that six months is too short a period. I am sympathetic to Miles Briggs’s point about considering whether the period could be a little bit longer, but I do not hear much movement from the cabinet secretary or any indication that she is prepared to negotiate on the issue at stage 3—unless I am detecting that now.

Today, we are faced with the option that, after six months, we should examine the process and consider whether we need to refresh the board. Given that the Government has begun to recruit to a board that does not yet exist for an organisation that has not yet been established, with functions that have not yet been agreed in legislation, it is important that we have an opportunity to do that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Should that be done as well as the bill or instead of it?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I still do not think that 40 days is enough, but I appreciate the clarification on recesses. It is incredibly important that we have 60 days—it could possibly be longer—because we need to have some time for scrutiny.

I do not see a particular form of parliamentary scrutiny set out in amendment 92, other than that the draft will be laid and members will be able to discuss it. My colleague Ross Greer might want to help me out on the intentions behind not adding a particular scrutiny process to the amendment.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Thank you—I appreciate that.

I am sorry to do this, but it is important that we try to tease out this question. Damien, what are your views on that particular structure?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Amendment 338 would require that any report published by the chief inspector on an educational establishment fully sets out the reasons for the findings that have been made, and amendment 339 would require the chief inspector to

“have regard to any representations made”

by relevant stakeholders, including those

“representing the interests of registered teachers or college teaching staff”

of the

“inspected establishment.”

In the interests of time, convener, I will leave the amendments there for members to decide on.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I understand the cabinet secretary’s point about the inclusion in my amendment of a purpose that relates to improvement, but does she recognise that the Muir review and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development review suggested that inspection should have an improvement focus?

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

This group of my amendments seek to address a gap that has been identified in inspection in relation to secure care and education. Amendment 320 would create a duty on the chief inspector, in the exercise of their function, to consider the use of restraint and seclusion in education settings in secure accommodation in Scotland. Although the chief inspector inspected the educational aspect of secure accommodation, the Care Inspectorate covers other aspects. That is considered to be a gap. The purpose of the amendment is to introduce the function of inspecting the use of restraint and seclusion in secure accommodation. The effect is to provide for that role and responsibility to be exercised by the chief inspector.

Amendment 344 would expand the chief inspector’s remit to monitor the use of restraint and seclusion in education settings in secure care services, through the existing joint inspection framework with the Care Inspectorate applicable to those services. It aims to ensure that all use of restraint and seclusion in such services is appropriately recorded, reported and monitored as part of the joint inspection process between the Care Inspectorate and the chief inspector, thereby ensuring compliance with article 37 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and articles 3 and 5 of the European convention on human rights.

Amendment 353 would provide the necessary definitions to support the joint inspection duty that is specified by amendment 344. Since lodging my amendments, I have had correspondence from various individuals who have been working with us on these issues to acknowledge that some movement has been made with the Government. I therefore intend not to move the amendments tonight, but I seek assurance that they could be brought back at stage 3 if the conclusion of that work has not delivered what was expected with regard to addressing the gap in inspection. While I do not intend to move the amendments, it is important that we identify that there has been a gap. Since I lodged the amendments, some activity seems to have been encouraged, which is an important aspect of what the process is about.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Amendment 331 would require the inspection plan to specify

“how notice of an inspection will be given to an establishment in advance of that inspection”,

and amendment 334 would require the inspection plan to specify

“how an assessment will be made about the mental and physical wellbeing support available in the establishment for ... persons undertaking education or training”

or

“persons providing teaching or training”.

Given what we discussed earlier about the environment in classrooms, the experience of young people and staff in schools and in particular the rise in violence, that is an important aspect of the inspector’s role.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Thank you, convener. I also thank Ross Greer and the cabinet secretary.

If the cabinet secretary is not supportive of amendment 351, can she tell us what other mechanism there is in the bill to ensure that there is not simply a process of transferring over the leadership of an existing organisation that does not have the trust or support of many stakeholders? What other mechanism is available to ensure that the leadership does not simply transfer without at least reapplying for appointment?