Chamber and committees

I am just making a brief plea, because there is an equality element to that issue as well, so cross-portfolio working on it would be hugely appreciated.

Yes, but also the childcare review. Those two massive policies are being introduced at the same time. At the same time as you want to reduce the number of local authorities and change the whole dynamic of local government, you want to increase the childcare offering. How do you intend to do both at the same time?

I know the issue well, which is why I continuously raise it. We need to do better with childcare, and I want the Government to succeed on it. We need to do so not only because it helps families with their personal income but because it allows more economic activity, which I am sure that we all want to see.

On your point about putting pay decisions to the councils, there needs to be recognition from the Scottish Government that the policy guidance needs to be changed to make it fairer for the private, voluntary and independent sector. It is not only the public sector that we need to consider in relation to public service reform; in areas such as childcare provision, the Scottish Government, through policy decisions, has engaged and brought in other partners. Please keep that in mind when you look at those particular policies, because it is really important.

I am testing your patience, convener, so I am sorry, but I have one last question. I will move from childcare to breakfast provision because concerns have been raised, by Magic Breakfast in particular, about the Scottish Government’s plan to have the

policy implemented by August 2027. I want to look at provision for additional support needs schools, because that provision does not necessarily stay only within the primary sector age bracket. It can expand, depending on the needs and requirements of children and young people who are in those particular schools.

What work is the Scottish Government undertaking in that area, bearing in mind that helping children with breakfast provision in such schools will help the Government to meet its poverty pledges?

We need to talk about childcare because, as well as setting out its public service reform programme, the Scottish Government has announced a programme of childcare expansion. We have just heard about some of the challenges that families are facing with the current offering of funded hours. My first question relates to the fact that both those policies have been committed to at the same time, which means that we are having to look at things through both lenses. How does the Government intend to do that?

I appreciate your response. One of the challenges that the childcare provision sector—especially providers in the private, voluntary and independent space—faces is the disparity between the pay of nursery staff who work for PVI providers and that of those who work in council-run facilities. Will the funding formula and, in particular, that disparity of pay, be addressed through public service reform? Will the relevant funding—this is similar to the question that Fulton MacGregor asked—be allocated nationally, rather than on a local authority basis, as it is at the moment?

I appreciate that, minister. I am also a former councillor—I was on North Lanarkshire Council.

On the changes that could happen in local authorities in relation to how childcare provision will function, there have been issues with various aspects of childcare, including cross-boundary issues, and the funding formula and how local authorities actually distribute the money, either to their own nurseries or to the private, voluntary and independent sector. Fundamentally, that comes down to parental choice. How do the witnesses see that integrating with the changes that might come about in local authorities in relation to funding and what could happen to the nursery setting more broadly? I am sorry—that is a big question.

That is really helpful. I ask the convener to bear with me for another minute.

Consideration is being given to expanding childcare to include all children from nine months to the end of primary school. We have spoken about single-parent families, but I switch the discussion to parents of multiples. We know that that means at least double the nappies, double the clothes, double the baby milk and double the childcare fees. Constituents have called on me to include parents of multiples in any consideration of expansions. Would you support that and consider it necessary?

I see that Sara Cowan has her hand up. I am putting the question to Charis Chittick first because we are having a bit of a dialogue. What are panel members’ thoughts on parents of multiples?

I imagine that some local authorities are more helpful than others at invoicing for the additional hours that are brought about by a need for more than the 1,140 hours. Has any work been done with local authorities on the specific concerns that relate to single-parent families? Could any work be done to stop people falling into arrears?

My question goes back to the issue of debt. We have covered the issue well, but Charis Chittick made a point about childcare debt, and I want to know whether that happens when children are between nine months and three years old, before the funded hours kick in, or whether it occurs across the board, because the 1,140 hours provision is not enough.