Chamber and committees

I would just go back to what I said—it is about the enforcement bit of it.

That is exactly what I would want to see in the bill. Exploring that a little further, we can see that there are clear advantages. We have commissioners, so we know that having a commissioner is a possibility; what we are discussing today is whether this particular commissioner’s bill will have the effect that it is intended to have. That depends partly on the powers of the commissioner, which could potentially be used to positive effect to not only focus specifically on the rights of disabled people, but hold public bodies to account and, as Meghan Gallacher said, act on behalf of disabled people. The commissioner could also have a role in highlighting ableism in Scotland and the issues of discrimination against disabled people, so there are clear merits there.

I can try. I think that I have covered most of that already. My concern around the finances is duplication. That is the bit that I am worried about. Would it be an effective use of the money? I refer to the money that it would cost not only to set up the office but to sustain it. We want it to be sustainable. It has to be. We would not want to set an expectation that was not delivered.

I would not want anyone to think that one set of money is taking away from another. That is not how it works. We have to discuss the bill on its own merits. I am not going to get into that question.

I am aware that the issue of costs has been spoken about in previous evidence sessions and that, for instance, at the evidence session on 18 June, when asked whether the proposed costs were an underestimate, Amy Dalrymple from Marie Curie Scotland said:

“The costs of ensuring that disabled people can access services ... are often underestimated”.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 18 June 2023; c 18.]

I do not think that the establishment of a commissioner can be done cheaply. I welcome Jeremy Balfour’s willingness to look at how administrative aspects could be shared and at how to make the role more affordable. However, you would expect me to be very cautious about that. I have looked at a comparison of similar commissioner roles across the UK. They usually have between 15 and 20 staff. The Commissioner for Older People for Northern Ireland has approximately 18 staff and the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales has approximately 16 staff. Therefore, you have to be very cautious—well, I have to be. I am scrutinising the money that goes into that.

As I said, my mind is open. If there is clear evidence that the best use of the money would be to have a commissioner who could possibly have an administrative team of between 15 and 20 staff, that will be looked at very seriously. However, the disabled people’s organisations want to ensure that the commissioner has teeth, and they can have teeth only if they have a full team of people who are able to execute that work. Therefore, I would worry that if, for example, we thought that we could cut down on the staff and have five or 10 people, the commissioner would not have the reach that was expected. Therefore, we need to be very mindful of that. However, I look forward to getting more facts and figures and evidence and analysis of that.

There has been a lot of discussion of inclusive communication. My initial delving into it indicates that there is no consistency. There are councils and public sector providers that are doing a really good job on inclusive communication but it is not consistent. I hope that we can address that through the bill and by spreading good practice.

Again, intersectionality comes into it as well. There are different layers of communication. We are not just talking about British Sign Language, for instance, but inclusive communication in everything for the hard of hearing—I am not going to list all the groups, because you always forget something, so please forgive me.

The general principle of it is that there are amazing good practices, but people use that term “postcode lottery”, which means that, depending on where you live, you do or do not get something. We cannot have that.

The principle of inclusive communication is important because it goes to the heart of the dignity and agency of those who have communication barriers. Perhaps they do not have the barriers; perhaps it is us who are creating those barriers, so it is on us to deal with them.

We need to ensure that provision is consistent. The public service equity duty is a big part of that. Again, it is about using the carrot and the stick. Currently, I am looking at whether there is a place for legislation. However, remember that we work in partnership with local authorities through the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. We have to respect that relationship, so we need to consider whether the best way is for the Scottish Government to legislate or whether we need to provide the tools and the frameworks.

Also, ministers have additional powers to strongly suggest—well, more than suggest; I cannot remember the phrase that is in the powers—something. I am considering those at the moment. What powers do we have to enforce that everybody is honouring their duties with regard to inclusive communications?

Our second agenda item is consideration of one negative Scottish statutory instrument: SSI 2023/375. I refer members to paper 1.

No members have indicated that they have any comments to make. That being the case, are members content not to make any comment to the Parliament on this instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you.

That was a pretty comprehensive answer. I do not see any indication that anyone else wants to come in. Do you have any further questions, Annie?

I point out to members and our contributors that we were scheduled to finish this meeting at 11 o’clock. I can allow a little bit of leeway, but I would like people to focus on succinct answers. There is no need for repetition and that goes for members because we have questions coming up that might have already been covered.

Thank you, Maggie. That is appreciated. I will move swiftly on to Fulton MacGregor, please.