Official Report: search what was said in Parliament
The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
Exactly.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
I want to accommodate what I can. What time do you think we might finish?
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
There is a multitude of ways in which we could do that. I am open-minded to ways that allow us to strike the balance that I highlighted to Jenni Minto between achieving what we want to achieve—that is, the highest possible animal welfare standards and no chasing and killing of wild mammals in the countryside—and facilitating people for whom two dogs are not enough and no other methods are available.
As I recall, we have discussed the possibility of people not necessarily being required to resubmit evidence for a licence application every time, but, frankly, everything has yet to be worked out. The weather is an example of a practical reality that I would want to be reflected.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
I am trying to remind myself of the definition. We refer to it as
“searching for, stalking or flushing”.
That is relevant to one of the examples that I mentioned to Karen Adam. If we tried to provide an exhaustive definition of hunting, we would eventually find ourselves in a circumstance in which someone could say, “I wasn’t undertaking any of those activities; I was doing something else”. They would find themselves outside the scope of the offence.
With regard to expanding a non-exhaustive list of what could constitute hunting, I do not disagree. That could be helpful.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
I am. That is another good question. During my discussion with Rachael Hamilton, I explained the reasons why we have included the welfare of rabbits, one of which is to bring them into line with welfare concerns about hares. The second reason is that people use rabbits as a cover for hare coursing, which we want to avoid. Of course, the bill will not prevent the control of rabbits and it will not stop the use of two dogs to help to flush rabbits from cover to waiting guns.
I am comfortable that there will still be scope for control under the bill, but it will be done more humanely, and the bill will protect other wild animals in the countryside and allow us to have clarity about when hare coursing is undertaken.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
Pheasants are not covered by the bill.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
I believe in appeal processes, and there is an internal review and appeal process in NatureScot. I asked the same question as you have, and it was explained to me that that is NatureScot’s structure for dealing with that, so it does have one. I am supportive of review and appeal processes and keen to see that they are in place and available.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
We are undertaking engagement with stakeholders throughout the development of the bill, and we are listening closely to the evidence that the committee takes. All of that will feed into NatureScot’s development of the licensing scheme. Hugh Dignon said that we would be happy to keep the Parliament up to date as that develops, but the scheme will be finalised after the bill is passed, as has been the case with other pieces of legislation, most recently the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Act 2020, in which we brought hares within protected status. We designed and finalised the licensing scheme for them after the passage of the bill.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
The limit is based on, first, the fact that it will substantially reduce the ability to chase and kill and, secondly, an assessment of what is possible with two dogs versus what people are seeking to use them for.
As I said in my opening remarks, Lord Bonomy recognised that there would be circumstances in which two dogs would not be sufficient. He pointed directly to terrain such as thick forest or hill ground. That is why a two-dog limit, bearing in mind that it helps to keep dogs under control and that England and Wales have successfully introduced such a limit, is a reasonable baseline, to be supplemented with a licensing scheme where necessary. Lord Bonomy has commented that the two together form a workable approach that he could support.
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Meeting date: 29 June 2022
Màiri McAllan
I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean. I am pursuing all the reasons for which a dog may be used. I come to the issue from the basis that we cannot allow an animal in any of those circumstances to be chased and killed. That is where the animal welfare concern is. As long as we seek to avoid that, whether the dogs are used to kill a fox, protect lambs or help to eradicate a non-native species, the welfare element lies in not allowing the chasing and the killing.
