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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 October 2025
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Displaying 3680 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Interests

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

A very good morning, and welcome to the 24th meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have apologies from Pauline McNeill; Fulton MacGregor is joining us online; and Sharon Dowey is slightly delayed in her arrival.

I extend our congratulations to our colleague Ben Macpherson MSP on his new ministerial role and thank him for all his work in committee.

I also welcome Jamie Hepburn MSP to the committee. We look forward to working with him, and I ask whether he has any relevant interests to declare.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. I will start off, and I will stick with the minister. It was helpful to hear your update on the specific matter of healthcare in prisons. As you will imagine, we have taken quite a bit of evidence on the healthcare support that is available in prisons.

Of course there are challenges with that at the moment, not least by virtue of the size of the prison population. NHS and health and care partnership representatives have told us that prison healthcare can often be limited by operational constraints. In his evidence, Dr Craig Sayers from NHS Forth Valley noted that, although he is present from 8 am to 5 pm on weekdays, he can see prisoners only during relatively short windows, because of officer availability and the natural constraints that can emerge in the prison estate. However, he also told us that, in some prisons, there seems to be more flexible access, which he believes we should look to make more standard. That would allow NHS staff to see more patients and to provide better care.

Would you care to respond to that? What commitment can the Scottish Government give to engaging with the SPS and NHS Scotland on how a more effective model that builds on the important service that is there already could be embedded in prisons?

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

By way of a follow-up, it is very helpful to understand a bit about the target operating model, because I do not think that that has been raised in evidence so far. It is good to understand that that approach is being used in order to promote service delivery. I do not want to complicate things, but how does that tie in with the MAT standards and how they are being rolled out across the prison estate?

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you for that offer. That would be really helpful, just so that we can get our heads around how everything intersects.

I will bring in Liam Kerr.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

Is there any idea of a timescale for that? A timely resolution would be good.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

There is an issue around transfer between prisons, which does not just apply to the remand population. The committee has heard about the impact of what are often last-minute transfers of individuals. That can happen for all sorts of different reasons, but what came across, in particular, was the disruptive impact that a transfer can have on somebody who uses substances but who is stable, for instance. They might have become quite stable and settled, but then, for no reason that they are aware of, they are transferred. I know that that is an operational requirement at the moment. Do you have any comment on any options to reduce or address that in the context of what we are discussing today?

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

The point that you made about clinical IT systems and clinical information has certainly come up with regard to having timely access to clinical information when a transfer is taking place. Thank you for that point.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. I will open it up to questions from other members.

12:00  

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

I wonder whether I can just come in with a question. Linda Pollock talked about the importance of relationships, and the critical role of the relationship between a prisoner and a prison officer or a member of staff has come up throughout the inquiry. However, we have heard in evidence about the disruptive nature of prison transfers. We understand the reasons for transfers, but they can have unintended consequences and the potential to disrupt relationships that are working well. Is that something that you are aware of? Are there ways in which transfers can be kept to a minimum and the benefit of relationships can be considered when a transfer is being proposed?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Audrey Nicoll

We understand the geographical model of the prison estate, and the fact that people from the north-east will end up in HMP Grampian, for example. We heard a counterargument from some prisoners about the benefit of being accommodated in a prison that is outwith their home area. That is perhaps to do with family complexities, family breakdown and some of the dynamics that can be difficult for a prisoner. It is interesting to hear that that can be considered in the transfer policy.

11:45