Chamber and committees

A very good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2022 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies. Members should note that Katy Clark and Fulton MacGregor will join us shortly.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. Today, the committee will scrutinise the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 of the Parliament’s legislative process. We will hear from three panels of witnesses.

First, I am pleased to welcome Tracey McFall, who is a member of the executive committee of the criminal justice voluntary sector forum; Lynne Thornhill, who is director of justice services at Sacro; and Charlie Martin, who is stakeholder and policy lead with the Wise Group. We appreciate the time that you have taken to join us this morning.

I intend to allow about an hour for questions and answers. All our witnesses are attending online, so it would be helpful if members indicated who their questions are for and if the witnesses indicated in the online chat function that they would like to respond to a specific question.

Given the slight tightness of time, I remind members and our guests to keep questions and answers as succinct as possible. I am happy to open up the session to members to ask questions.

Thank you. I will open up the meeting to questions from members.

That is helpful. I will bring in Jamie Greene again to bring the session to a close. We are just about out of time.

Thanks, Lynne. Would Tracey McFall like to comment?

Thanks very much, Sandra. Your sound is a wee bit difficult to hear, but I think that we got the gist of that.

I am very pleased to speak in this important debate on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. I thank the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for bringing the debate to the chamber.

Inequality, poverty and health are threads that run right through many of the issues that the Criminal Justice Committee is considering. In “The Vision for Justice in Scotland”, the Scottish Government states that

“Crime and victimisation are intrinsically linked to deep-seated issues such as poverty and income and wealth inequality.”

It also states that 33 per cent of people in prison are from the most deprived areas of Scotland, which is a truly shocking statistic. I agree with the convener of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee that more focus is needed on prevention and tackling the underlying causes of health inequality.

Last week, I attended a conference on policing mental health, and I listened to one contributor describe how

“prevention always loses in the backroom of power.”

That cannot, and does not, reflect our approach in Scotland. However, sectors, organisations and individuals must be supported with appropriate legislative and other structures to make preventative approaches succeed.

One area for improvement is ensuring that support is in place for people on their leaving prison. When people are released without a fixed address, little access to benefits or employment, and difficult access to health services such as a general practitioner, there is a high likelihood that they will simply return to prison.

As others have mentioned, the cost of living crisis and high fuel costs are disproportionately impacting the poorest people in Scotland. There is a real danger that, without extra support, those who are struggling to survive will simply turn to petty crime.

Recently, Chief Superintendent Phil Davison of Police Scotland warned that the force has noticed changes in the type of items that are being taken in shoplifting incidents, with people now stealing more basic necessities. That change in behaviour is causing the police service to become extremely concerned over the wider impact of the cost of living crisis.

An area of the Criminal Justice Committee’s on-going work is how to improve the policing responses to those who are experiencing poor mental health. Officers cannot take someone from a private place—normally their home—to a place of safety; therefore, in order to fulfil their duty of care, when someone is in mental health distress, one option is that they might have to arrest the person, regardless of the fact that they have committed no crime. That simply makes their situation worse, leaving people feeling criminalised by a system that is supposed to protect them.

A sensitive policing approach is very much needed when dealing with people whose issues are health related. We saw during Covid that a more sensitive, considerate and compassionate approach to policing was extremely effective and appropriate.

There have been a couple of welcome developments in ensuring that people with health issues are given the right support. The first of those is the collaboration between Police Scotland and Public Health Scotland to address public health and wellbeing in communities across the country. The second is that each health board in Scotland is now providing access to a mental health clinician 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I look forward to seeing the impact of those initiatives.

I thank everyone who has contributed to the work of the Criminal Justice Committee. I also echo the comments of the public health minister, who said that the answers to health inequality do not lie simply in the public health portfolio. Finally, I again thank the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for securing today’s debate on this very important issue.

I very much thank Emma Harper for securing the debate. I enjoyed listening to her eloquently setting the scene in her opening speech. It was a great contribution on the challenges and opportunities that derelict and vacant land brings to communities.

In my short contribution, I want to highlight a scenario in my constituency that, on the face of it, seems like a golden opportunity to transform a derelict site for community benefit. However, when we look under the surface, we see that it is more challenging.

As the daughter of a greengrocer, I am utterly loyal to community wealth-building approaches. Like many colleagues, I am lucky enough to represent an area that has independent shops, coffee shops, makers, designers, artisan bakeries and so on—you name it. There are lots of different members of the community who are invested in bringing character and life to local spaces. Equally, what we define as vacant and derelict land can contribute to that character and life.

The Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities place principle sits at the heart of addressing the needs of communities and realising their full potential. Places are shaped by the way in which resources, services and assets are directed and used by the people who live and invest in them.

Aberdeen city, much like the rest of the UK, has a legacy of land contamination resulting from past industrial use, including in the historical oil and gas sector. Having said that, I note that the self-same energy sector is considered by some to have avoided the emergence of a bigger cohort of derelict and vacant land in the north-east over the years. Nevertheless, in circumstances involving contaminated land, local authorities are required

“to ... remove unacceptable risks to”

people

“and the environment”

and

“to seek to bring damaged land back into beneficial use”.

On that point, I highlight a scenario in my constituency. I have been working with constituents who live adjacent to an area of land that is owned by the local authority but which has, over many years, been leased as an industrial site. The oil and gas downturn led to the site being vacated and flattened, but the lease remains in place.

The site is now contaminated. In recent years, however, it has emerged as a natural habitat, hosting a range of animals and bird life. Local residents derive real pleasure from it, and there is a feeling of attachment and wellbeing connected to the space. Perversely, the leaseholder’s annual maintenance, which is to be applauded, can nevertheless remove some of the emerging habitat that is attracting wildlife into it. Efforts to date to explore how the status of the site can shift from contaminated land to community asset have proved to be very difficult, which perhaps demonstrates a lack of synergy, with the aspirations of community wealth building set against the legislative and policy framework around vacant and derelict land.

I welcome the Scottish Land Commission’s report “Transforming Scotland’s Approach to Vacant and Derelict Land”, and I note the recommendations around

“Aligning Policy to Support Delivery”,

including the recommendation that

“action should be taken to make it easier to overcome ownership barriers to land reuse.”

I completely agree with that recommendation.

However, in the case that I outlined, the issue is made more complex by the leased status of the land and by the understandable hesitation around—as I anticipate—its status changing. Realistically, that is a very difficult situation for community members to grapple with. I am therefore interested in hearing the minister’s thoughts on that particular scenario, and I would be pleased to engage further on the issue down the line.

I am grateful to Emma Harper for bringing the debate to the chamber, and I look forward to working on the issue in my constituency in the future.

The MAT standards emphasise a multipronged approach to treatment and residential rehabilitation as a potential course for support. Given the work to ensure that the MAT standards are met, can the minister provide an update on the efforts to increase the numbers of people who are publicly funded for the residential rehabilitation programmes?

To ask the Scottish Government, with regard to flooding in Scotland, what engagement it has had with the UK Government to mitigate the great risk transfer, as described in a recent David Hume Institute report. (S6O-01674)

With several areas of Scotland, including my Aberdeen South and North Kincardine constituency, now at increased risk, the Flood Re scheme to which the minister referred offers some hope to householders. However, too few people are aware of the scheme, and it excludes properties that have been built since 2009. What steps is the Scottish Government taking to publicise the Flood Re scheme and ensure that home owners are aware of the possibility of affordable insurance through it?