The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
My final question before we move on to part 3 of the bill is on the role of the Scottish Prison Service with regard to trauma-informed practice. The committee has heard evidence relating to the treatment of prisoners in a trauma-informed way. However, I am interested in how the cabinet secretary envisages the provisions in part 2 of the bill further impacting the role of the Scottish Prison Service with particular reference to victims and witnesses—for example, in and around the victim notification scheme.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Good morning, and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have apologies from John Swinney. I welcome Jackie Dunbar to the meeting as a committee substitute.
Our first agenda item is to decide whether to take item 5 in private. Do members agree to do so?
Members indicated agreement.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you—that is a really helpful update.
I have a couple of supplementary questions that I might come back to later if we have time, but first I will open up the session to members. I will bring in Rona Mackay and then Fulton MacGregor.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
I will bring in Fulton MacGregor and then Sharon Dowey.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you very much for those opening remarks. I will kick things off by picking up on your comments about management structures and wanting to see a different approach across not just Police Scotland but the whole justice system. I will reference some of the key findings in your report under the heading of leadership and vision.
For the benefit of members, I will tease out some of your points in the key findings. You say that there is
“a perception among officers that senior leaders focus”,
as you have outlined,
“on safe outcomes, seeking to minimise every possible threat, risk and harm. This is normally achieved by police officers remaining with the person in crisis until they are either accepted into the care of the NHS or a family member. This approach to organisational and reputational risk results in a lack of focus on reflection and opportunities for improvement, often to the detriment of the individual concerned.”
You go on to say that
“Police Scotland cannot wait until a review of the whole system is undertaken before developing and implementing its own mental health strategy. We believe the current situation is unsustainable.”
In the following paragraph, you say that
“Police Scotland must now develop and implement a mental health strategy and seek to understand its legal and moral position and role within the whole system”.
I think that we all understand and relate to those remarks. Will you expand on the last point about understanding the legal and moral position and help us understand what you were thinking about in those comments?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Before I bring in Katy Clark, I will pick up on the comments that you have made. I am really glad that Pauline McNeill asked a question about psychiatric emergency plans. Having been part of the review of the Grampian plan many years ago, I know about the spirit of psychiatric emergency plans in underpinning that collaborative approach to poor mental health, whatever end of the spectrum that might be.
Should we be looking to develop the role of psychiatric emergency plans to underpin all the challenges that we have been discussing today? I am interested to hear your commentary on that. Am I right in thinking that psychiatric emergency plans sit within mental health legislation? Should we be using them much more robustly?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you to all of our witnesses. The session has been really informative. I am sure that we could have continued to ask questions.
That concludes the public part of our meeting. Next week, we will review the evidence that has been taken so far on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill, consider a draft report on our pre-budget scrutiny, and consider correspondence that has been received about deaths in custody and about the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018.
12:41 Meeting continued in private until 12:57.Meeting of the Parliament
Meeting date: 15 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Although I appreciate that decisions such as on the pilot project in the north-east are for the chief constable, how does the Scottish Government continue to support Police Scotland to ensure that local priorities are met and relationships with local communities, which the cabinet secretary alluded to a short time ago, are maintained?
Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee
Meeting date: 9 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Okay. Professor Paquin, do you want to add anything to that?
Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee
Meeting date: 9 November 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thanks very much for those comprehensive responses. I will ask a brief follow-up question that comes back to my original question about domestic policy. In the context of not only planning and consenting—the example that I gave—but trade and investment, do you agree that, when developing policy, it is important that it has an international trade compatibility or compliance element? I will start with Professor Cornago and then bring in Professor Paquin.