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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 4789 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

For the record, I clarify that we received the letter that you sent earlier this week, which provides an update on previously passed legislation, including the Children (Scotland) Act 2020, the Vulnerable Witnesses (Criminal Evidence) (Scotland) Act 2019 and the Domestic Abuse (Protection) (Scotland) Act 2021. That correspondence is now available online.

With that, I draw the session to a close. I thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for joining us.

There will be a short suspension to allow a changeover of witnesses.

11:32 Meeting suspended.  

11:38 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

Policing and Mental Health

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Our next agenda item is an evidence session on His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland’s report, “Policing Mental Health in Scotland—A Thematic Review”. I am pleased to welcome Craig Naylor, chief inspector with His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland; Mr Brian McInulty, lead inspector with HMICS; and Dr Arun Chopra, medical director at the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland and HMICS advisory group member. A warm welcome to you all.

I refer members to papers 3 and 4. I intend to allow up to an hour for this session. I invite the chief inspector to make some opening remarks.

Criminal Justice Committee

Policing and Mental Health

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Dr Chopra, the Mental Welfare Commission published a report on “The role of police officers in mental health support: a review of repeated uses of police place of safety powers under the Mental Health Act”. In your key findings, you state:

“Rates of conversion from all s297 detentions to emergency or short-term detention are about 15%. This is about three times higher than the rate among those being repeatedly detained under s297 which is at 5.34%.”

I know from my past experience that recourse to a place of safety is not an uncommon course of action for police officers, so that figure of just above 5 per cent is incredible. Could you say a bit more about that particular finding?

Criminal Justice Committee

Policing and Mental Health

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

I completely agree with that. I would like to ask lots of follow-up questions, but a good number of members want to come in.

Criminal Justice Committee

Policing and Mental Health

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Quite a number of members want to come in. I know that that is a crucial issue, but perhaps I can bring in Jackie Dunbar and then Fulton MacGregor.

Criminal Justice Committee

Policing and Mental Health

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

I beg your pardon. Sorry, Mr McInulty.

Criminal Justice Committee

Policing and Mental Health

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

I apologise for my lapse. I bring in Fulton MacGregor.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you very much—that is a helpful open door. That response might help us to segue into considering part 2 of the bill, on embedding trauma-informed practice.

We heard some excellent evidence on trauma-informed practice a couple of weeks ago from Dr Caroline Bruce and from Professor Thanos Karatzias of Edinburgh Napier University. Professor Karatzias made a point in response to a question about the whole-system embedding of trauma-informed practice. He said that the principles of trauma-informed practice are quite general and involve

“safety, choice, collaboration, trustworthiness and empowerment.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 1 November 2023; c 2.]

However, different elements might apply in different parts of the justice sector. For instance, the principles of safety and choice are perhaps more relevant in a court setting, while principles of recovery might be more important and relevant in prisons.

Does the cabinet secretary consider that the provisions of the bill will support a whole-system application of trauma-informed practice—as set out, for example, by Professor Karatzias?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

To follow up that point, if the bill is passed and we have a whole-system embedding of trauma-informed practice, will some provision be put in place to support and embed the implementation of a whole-system approach? What early work might be required around that?

10:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. Sharon Dowey is next.