Chamber and committees

Thank you. I will bring in Rona Mackay and then Katy Clark.

Eric, you mentioned white vans earlier, and I know that a joint decision has been made, albeit on a temporary basis, to set time limits in order to avoid late-night sittings in custody courts. Obviously that is very welcome for lawyers and court staff in particular, but has any modelling been done on the impact of that? My immediate thought is that it might just create a backlog of cases that are not being dealt with in the evening hours.

That was a really helpful update.

Finally, I want to ask about the process of transferring information such as police reports, evidence and so on, from the police to the Crown Office. Forgive me if this has been covered in earlier responses, but I think that it is a welcome part of transformation and reform. I am therefore curious about whether you have any update on that work, particularly in the context of the potential budget implications for the Crown Office.

Yes.

No, no—it is fine.

I take it that, as far as the budget is concerned, that work will continue.

Our next item of business is the start of our pre-budget scrutiny of the Scottish Government’s 2024-25 budget. We have two evidence panels today, and I intend to run each for up to 90 minutes.

I am pleased to welcome our first panel of witnesses. They are Deputy Chief Constable Jane Connors, crime and operational support; David Page, deputy chief officer; and James Gray, chief financial officer, all from Police Scotland. We also have with us Lynn Brown, who is the chief executive of the Scottish Police Authority, and, from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, Ross Haggart, chief officer; Stuart Stevens, deputy chief officer; and John Thomson, acting director of finance and procurement.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I thank the witnesses who provided written submissions. I also thank the Scottish Police Federation and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents for their written submissions, which were received after we put out our meeting papers. I also thank the Fire Brigades Union for its submission, which, likewise, was received after the papers were published. Those submissions have all been sent separately to members and are now published online.

Given the size of the panel of witnesses, I ask everyone to be succinct as possible in their questions and answers. If they can, members should direct their questions to one or more of the witnesses, at least initially. I invite each organisation that is present to try to field just one person to respond, initially.

Having said that, I will begin with an open question to get the evidence session under way.

During last year’s budget scrutiny, all three organisations that are here today painted a challenging picture of the state of their budget, although that was relieved in part by extra money that was allocated by the Scottish Government. I invite Police Scotland, the SPA and then the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to tell us briefly how the finances for 2023-24 have worked. What financial situation have you been working in, and what concerns or commentary do you have as we approach the 2024-25 settlement? I go first to Mr Gray.

Lynn Brown, I will come to you next, if you want to add anything to what we have already heard.

We come to Fulton MacGregor.

I thank Rona Mackay for bringing this timeous debate to the chamber, and for highlighting the establishment of the first bairns’ hoose in Scotland, located in north Strathclyde. We could almost feel her sense of sheer delight when she made her opening remarks, and rightly so. The implementation of Scotland’s first bairns’ hoose is welcome, and I know that it will support and benefit the children and families who might, one day, use its services.

As has already been highlighted, the bairns’ hoose seeks to protect children who come into contact with the criminal justice system after having experienced, participated in or witnessed significantly harmful behaviour. Through minimising children’s engagement with the courts, and by creating a more welcoming and therapeutic environment with access to specialist services, children are supported to recover from the traumatic events that they have endured.

Indeed, Iceland’s barnahus model—the model that our bairns’ hoose approach is based on—consistently demonstrates positive outcomes, including less risk of a child becoming retraumatised from having to recount their experiences. The barnahus environment is far more favourable than that of a police station or court, and the model has seen an improvement in the conviction rate for child sexual abuse cases.

There are many ways in which children can enter the justice system—perhaps through civil proceedings such as adoption, or even through matters involving immigration—and each case can be difficult for a child to navigate. Although those cases can be harmful for children, there is none that places a child more at risk than those involving violence and abuse. Therefore, in a modern justice environment, the barnahus model has an important role to play.

Reflecting on my experience as an investigator of serious and complex sexual crimes, some involving children, I can see that progress has already been made. I recall how excited we were when Grampian Police decided to decorate a room for children on the fourth floor of police headquarters. We put in a sofa and soft lighting, along with a box of toys, and we were proud of what we felt was a first step towards a multi-agency response to child sexual offences. Recently, I found a copy of a report that I co-wrote following a review of child protection services in Grampian Police in 2006, and I was slightly bemused to read that it said that

“the concept of joint working should be borne in mind during any future expansion of Family Protection services, thus enabling partners to co-locate alongside police. This could be as simple as factoring in some spare office accommodation and car parking facilities”.

I am glad to confirm that a lot of progress has been made since then.

Members will be aware that Scotland’s approach to investigating allegations of child sexual abuse has more recently been informed by Lady Dorrian’s report, “Improving the Management of Sexual Offence Cases”. The bairns’ hoose model aligns with the recommendations in that report, which highlights the importance of improving the experience of children in the justice system.

I am pleased that, as Rona Mackay said, the programme for government includes the launch of a bairns’ hoose pathfinder as part of the work to develop a whole-system approach for children experiencing abuse and harm. Of course, the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill will see further reform to improve the experiences of victims and witnesses, including children, across the criminal justice system.

I look forward to following the progress of the newly opened bairns’ hoose, and to the model being further developed across Scotland, in line with our commitment to improving the experiences of children in the criminal justice system.

I once again thank Rona Mackay for bringing this important topic to the chamber, and I look forward to listening to members’ speeches.