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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
John Swinney is happy not to come back in. Katy Clark has a question.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
On that positive note, I thank the Lord Advocate for joining us. That has been immensely helpful.
We will have a short suspension to allow for a change of witnesses.
10:06 Meeting suspended.Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
Before I bring in Pauline McNeill, I will ask a couple of questions about the proposals for the rape trial pilot. As we know, the judiciary’s submission reflected different opinions on the proposal, which were well set out and helpful. However, we recently took evidence from Professor Vanessa Munro who said, in relation to the proposal for a time-limited pilot:
“In our written submission, we have tried to say that a judge-only pilot would not be an unreasonable move for gathering more evidence, and that is akin to what Lady Dorrian said in her testimony to the committee on the importance of developing a stronger evidence base for comparison.”
She went on:
“Part of the reason for having a pilot would be to learn more about what that alternative would look like and what change it may or may not result in.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 24 January 2024; c 17.]
Given that we have heard different views on the proposals for a pilot, I wonder whether you, on behalf of the judiciary, have a thought or opinion on how we take that information together—both sides of the coin, if you like—and what a pilot could look like, perhaps with some different thinking around the proposal as it is set out in the bill, if that makes sense.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you. We will come back to that. Seonaid Stevenson-McCabe, would you like to add anything?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
Before I bring in Russell Findlay, I have a slightly left-field question. Should the provisions on anonymity be extended to the accused? I do not know whether you have looked at that issue in the scope of your work, but, in any case, I would be interested to know what, if any, views you have on that.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
That is interesting. I will bring in Russell Findlay.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
I will bring in Sharon Dowey in a moment. First, following on from Pauline McNeill’s final question, the issue that has come into my head during the session is victims’ autonomy. We have spoken about their choices and the extent of their control. Which factors should be considered in how we inform a victim about their choices on anonymity, so that we balance the legislative provisions with aspects such as their welfare and their right to autonomy? It is more of a practical question about what that would look like. How do we tell them what anonymity is and what it means for them?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
That is an interesting point.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 31 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
Good morning and welcome to the fifth meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies.
I welcome the Rt Hon Dorothy Bain KC, the Lord Advocate. Thank you for taking the time to attend—it is much appreciated. We have already heard from Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service officials and have had written evidence, but the committee felt that we needed to ask you specifically about a few very important issues, so we are grateful that you are able to join us today.
I intend to allow up to 60 minutes for this evidence session, and I propose that we focus our questions to the Lord Advocate on the proposal for a victims commissioner, then on trauma-informed training and then, finally, on the abolition of the not proven verdict and changes to jury majorities.
I understand that you do not want to make an opening statement, Lord Advocate, so I will open with a question about the bill’s provisions on the proposed victims and witnesses commissioner. We understand that you have concerns that those provisions might unintentionally interfere with your independence. Will you outline those concerns and the changes that you consider are needed to address them?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 24 January 2024
Audrey Nicoll
I will start to pull things together. I have a supplementary from John Swinney—it will have to be the briefest supplementary—and Katy Clark would still like to come back in. I ask the witnesses to bear with us.