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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you very much. Would Stuart Murray like to add anything?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
We are over time. I will come in, if I may, with a final question for Stuart Munro, and then we will draw the session to a close. The question is about the survey of members that was undertaken by the Law Society. It is my understanding that more than 70 per cent of members who responded believed that the not proven verdict should be retained. Will you expand a little on the survey and the results, including the minority view, which obviously consisted of around 30 per cent?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
We move to our second panel of witnesses. From the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, I welcome Laura Buchan, who is procurator fiscal for policy and engagement, and Alisdair Macleod, who is principal procurator fiscal depute in the policy division. I intend to allow around 60 minutes for the session.
I will open up with a general question on the jury research that has been undertaken in Scotland. Laura, what weight do you give to the findings of the available research, including the Scottish jury research, as part of the evidence relating to the proposals in part 4 of the bill?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
I know that that is an important issue, but I need to move on and bring in John Swinney.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you. I call Fulton MacGregor.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Good morning, and welcome to the 34th meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies this morning.
Our main item of business today is to continue to take evidence on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. We will continue phase 2 of our scrutiny and focus specifically on part 4 of the bill, which covers the abolition of the not proven verdict and changes to jury sizes and majorities.
We are joined by Ronnie Renucci KC, who is vice-dean of the Faculty of Advocates; Mr Stuart Munro from the Law Society of Scotland; and Mr Stuart Murray, who is president of the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association. Welcome to you all.
I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 75 minutes for this session.
As ever, I will begin with a general question. I will work from my right to my left, and bring in Mr Munro first, then Mr Renucci, and then Mr Murray. Why do you believe that the not proven verdict should be retained as a third verdict?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
I will now bring in other members. Fulton MacGregor is first.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
I need to move things on. I am conscious of time. I encourage members to direct their questions to specific witnesses, unless it is absolutely necessary to ask all witnesses because you would like a response from each of them. We will get through more questions that way.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
We have strayed a little from part 4. I do not like to be too precious, but I point that out in the interests of getting as much evidence as possible on part 4.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 13 December 2023
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you very much for those opening responses. I will ask a follow-up question and put it to the three of you in the same order as before.
In the interests of having an accessible and transparent justice system in Scotland, how would you define “not proven”? That there is no definition of the not proven verdict has come up in previous evidence sessions. How would you define “not proven” if its meaning were to be set out in legislation, for example?