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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 January 2026
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Displaying 4572 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

In its evidence, the Scottish Police Authority expressed support for the provision that relates to calling in complaints being a function of the PIRC. It felt that that was a positive step forward. I am interested in the backdrop to the inclusion of that provision.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

As I said, the SPA was broadly supportive of that provision. The committee also heard other evidence that that provision would enhance the investigation process.

The bill places an individual duty of candour on police officers only, although staff would be covered by a separate organisational duty of candour, achieved by amending the policing principles. Should that individual duty also apply to all police staff or at least to those with the same powers and responsibilities as police officers, such as custody staff, who have a particular role? They are not police officers—they are staff—but they have a type of role about which there is the potential for complaints to be made. That is the view of the PIRC, Police Scotland and HMICS, although that is opposed by Unison. I am interested in your response to that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I am sorry, Ms Dowey, but I need to bring in other members.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Three members still want to come in. We have 15 minutes or so left, so I ask for succinct questions and responses.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That would be helpful—follow-up correspondence would allow for more time now.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That brings us slightly over time. I thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for their attendance this morning—it has been most helpful.

With that, we move into private session.

11:34 Meeting continued in private until 12:34.  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Does the cabinet secretary want to come back in, before I move on to another member?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We are aware that, over the years, more and more roles and responsibilities in Police Scotland that were once undertaken by officers are being undertaken by staff. It is important that that is recognised.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Good morning, and welcome to the 22nd meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies.

Our business today is our final stage 1 evidence session on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the meeting the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, Angela Constance; Kevin Lee and Steven Bunch from the Scottish Government’s police division; and Caroline Kubala from the Scottish Government legal directorate. Thank you for agreeing to provide evidence to the committee today.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for this evidence session.

I invite the cabinet secretary to make some opening remarks.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you very much for that helpful opening and setting of the scene.

I will kick things off. As you said, the Scottish Government’s aspiration is that the bill will ensure that there are robust, clear and transparent mechanisms for investigating complaints and allegations of misconduct. During our evidence sessions, the issue of culture has come up. Witnesses have told us that, for them to have real confidence in the police complaints system, the culture in Police Scotland must change. It is clear that a lot of work has been going on in policing to implement the non-legislative recommendations in Lady Elish Angiolini’s review. That was particularly highlighted last week by the chief inspector of His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland, who reflected on his recent inspection on organisational culture. He said:

“there was a real gap in the provision of leadership training and cultural change during the first five or six years”—

of Police Scotland’s existence—

“and it was a very different organisation to the one that we see today. I see that as positive.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 23 May 2024; c 2.]

From your perspective and in the context of what the bill is seeking to do, do you feel that we are starting to see the necessary culture change in Police Scotland?