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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 November 2025
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Displaying 4390 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. That leads on quite nicely to another piece of work—I am stepping outside the bill for a moment, but I suppose that it is indirectly relevant.

You will be aware that the Scottish Parliament Finance and Public Administration Committee is doing a piece of work on the commissioner landscape in Scotland, and is taking evidence on the effectiveness of commissioners and their role.

A number of new commissioner posts have been proposed. However, one of the things that the finance committee has been looking at is why we need commissioners in the first place. What is happening or not happening that means that we need them? Are public bodies not fulfilling some of their duties around the conduct of staff or is there perhaps a wider societal issue, such as the cost of living crisis, that is having an impact on the public generally?

That is a really big question but I am interested in your perspective. You have a very demanding commissioner role—there are no doubts about that. Do you have any comment on that wider analysis or the question around the role of commissioners? Do we need them? [Laughter.] I know that you will say yes, and that is absolutely fine.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I have a couple of questions, the first of which relates to the functions of the PIRC, particularly in relation to police officers who have left the service. The bill clarifies the definition of the phrase

“persons serving with the police”

to allow the PIRC to investigate allegations of criminality against officers who have left the service, where the behaviour took place prior to their joining or while they were off duty. In your submission, you provide some evidence that the impact of such a provision could be that you would no longer have to run parallel investigations in certain circumstances. Do you envisage it impacting on any other aspects of CAAPD’s work or its role, given that it currently deals only with on-duty criminality?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

As there are no further questions, we move to consideration of the instrument. I am sure that I do not need to remind officials that only MSPs may speak in a debate on the motion. I invite the cabinet secretary to move motion S6M-12734.

Motion moved,

That the Criminal Justice Committee recommends that the International Organisations (Immunities and Privileges) (Scotland) Amendment Order 2024 [draft] be approved.—[Angela Constance]

Motion agreed to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Do members agree to delegate responsibility to me and the clerks to approve a short factual report to the Parliament on this affirmative SSI?

Members indicated agreement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thanks very much for that comprehensive answer. I will now bring in Sharon Dowey, after which we will draw our session to a close.

11:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I will bring in other members and then come back to you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thanks for the clarification. I see that Phillip Chapman and Sharon Clelland do not have anything to add, so I will move on. I should say that I am also interested in some of the comments in your submission about safeguarding, but I will come back to that later.

I call Russell Findlay.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We are a bit ahead of time, but I am going to draw this session to a close.

I thank our witnesses for coming along this morning. Your evidence has been very helpful, and we appreciate your time.

We will now have a short suspension to allow for a changeover of witnesses.

11:19 Meeting suspended.  

11:24 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

The committee heard evidence from a witness, a former police officer, who had been the subject of a criminal investigation in relation to an incident that had happened while he was on duty. He subsequently left the service. During his evidence, he spoke about what he described as the “weaponisation” of the system against people who make complaints. That is quite a big claim to make. I am interested in whether you have seen any evidence of that. Do you recognise that characterisation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. Can I just go back to why we have the different threshold? You set out some information at the beginning of your earlier response, and I think that I am right to interpret that as meaning that there is, with police officers, perhaps a higher expectation of adherence to discipline and good conduct. In itself, that brings us to the point where we have a lower reporting threshold. I am struggling slightly to set that against the safeguarding issues that we touched on in the previous evidence session and compliance around human rights. Do you have a comment on that?