The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Okay—great. That is the final word. I thank you all for what has been an excellent session. We could probably have run on for another hour.
We will have a short suspension to allow a changeover of witnesses.
11:27 Meeting suspended.
11:33 On resuming—
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
One of the things that was highlighted in the paper on safe spaces was the need for peer support, which the cabinet secretary referred to, as well as the need to work alongside clinical staff. The clinical aspect of overall care is important.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
That is helpful to know.
I will stop there and bring in members, starting with Liam Kerr.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
A very good morning, and welcome to the first meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. Happy new year to everyone. We have no apologies this morning.
Our first item of business is a decision on whether to take in private agenda item 3, under which we will review the evidence that we hear under item 2. Do members agree to take item 3 in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Our main item of business is an evidence session on the continuing challenges that are faced by Police Scotland officers and staff in responding to people in distress. I welcome our first panel of witnesses. I am pleased that we are joined by Dr Inga Heyman, associate professor, Edinburgh Napier University; Assistant Chief Constable Catriona Paton and Chief Superintendent Matt Paden, Police Scotland; Dr Robby Steel, consultant liaison psychiatrist, NHS Scotland; and Dr David Hamilton, mental health manager at the state hospital. What a fantastic panel. Thank you all for giving up your time—we know that you are busy. We also appreciate the submissions that some of you were able to provide ahead of the meeting.
I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I thank—in addition to our witnesses—all the organisations that have provided us with written evidence. I intend to allow up to 75 minutes or so for this session. To get us started, I will open with a very general question. We will start with Dr Heyman, and we will then work our way across the panel.
The policing response to people in distress is an issue that the committee has been interested in for much of this parliamentary session. What are your initial thoughts on the progress that has been made in that area of policing generally? In addition, from your respective perspectives, what are the key priorities that need to be considered in further developing a multisectoral or whole-system approach that enables officers and staff to transfer the care of a person to a more appropriate service?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
We are now joined by the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs and her officials. I wish you all a happy new year. Accompanying the cabinet secretary from the Scottish Government, I welcome Lynsey McKean, policy team leader in the police division, and Alasdair Cook, principal medical adviser with the mental health division. I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow about 75 minutes for this evidence session.
I invite the cabinet secretary to make some opening remarks.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
The submissions from Police Scotland and others have helpfully set out some of the work that has been going on, which is welcome to see.
I bring in Dr Robby Steel.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
I will bring in Liam Kerr and Ben Macpherson to ask two very quick supplementary questions and I will then have to end this evidence session, as we have only five minutes left.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Yes, if you are very quick.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 January 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you very much, cabinet secretary. That has been very helpful. I think that all members would endorse the comments that you made in recognising the commitment of everybody who works across health and social care, particularly in the mental health and wellbeing space. We associate ourselves with your comments.
Based on the submissions and the helpful letter that you sent in August, personally, I think that it is fair to say that the dial is shifting on the work that is being done to support policing in relation to those with mental distress. That was borne out in the evidence of the previous panel, when we heard about a range of initiatives and approaches and the more strategic work that has been going on. That was helpful in setting some context. It also helped us to understand the complexity of the demographic of people that we are collectively dealing with. It is not always people who are in a state of distress—obviously, it can be much more complex than that.
One thing that I am particularly interested in and encouraged by is the Government’s scoping report on safe spaces. To be honest, I was unaware of the extent to which safe spaces have been, or are being, developed in Scotland, so I found that welcome. In regard to safe spaces, can you outline more on the direction of travel? Based on the work that the Government has already been doing, where do you see that going?