Chamber and committees

:Ironically, at least formally, the BBC gets it better than some UK Governments have got it, if I can put it that way. It is baked into how the BBC describes its mission. It talks about “nations and regions” and it has made some big decisions about pushing commissioning and head count out of London to Salford. The facility there is amazing, and it is absolutely right and proper that it should be there.

When one speaks with senior decision makers, one hears very plausible declarations that they want to get the matter right. Nobody from the BBC has taken issue with me about the criticism that I am making, Mr Harvie. I have made points about the BBC talking about “the Government” and other issues, and when I have met senior BBC decision makers, none of them has taken issue with those criticisms. They say that it is all part of the process of trying to do it better and that the experience of Covid helped the BBC to understand that there are four national health services in the UK.

:I very much hope not. In that online space, there are many things that are not good, but there is much that is good. People are able to access information in ways that they were never able to in the past—

:I totally agree. I am mystified by STV’s approach to news, particularly in the north-east, because it is reducing its ability to produce news content and share it. Everybody on the committee knows how important it is for a broadcaster to have an online platform on which people can access its content. We are encouraged to go to iPlayer and STV Player and those are ways in which we increasingly get our news—in an online context. In this case, there appears to be a total lack of application of modern technology to ensure the delivery of news content from the north of Scotland. Surprise, surprise, people in the north of Scotland say that what is proposed will diminish what they are able to see about their part of the world on television. I agree with that.

Rather than looking at the opportunities of perhaps doing something a little bit different, broadcasters focus on threats. For them, financial drivers are their official reasoning. Instead of prioritising the production of content that people want to see by using new technology—there are different ways of using automation in the production of bulletins and longer-form programmes—and then promoting that in particular geographical regions, the priority is to diminish their footprint and produce less. That is completely the wrong way round and seems like a missed opportunity. I strongly encourage broadcasters to make more of that. I agree that people want to see their locality and their news, but we are seeing a retrenchment of that.

:Indeed. I know that, for people who are not sports fans, it probably does not mean much to point all this out but, for those who do appreciate sport, the first thing to realise is that not just football but Saturday afternoon sport in general on BBC Scotland—and on its commercial competition—is world class.

One of the challenges that BBC Scotland faces is that it is very unusual. I was joking about North Korea earlier, but very few countries have one channel as the public service radio station—and that is what BBC Scotland is. Of course, it has BBC Radio nan Gàidheal for Gaelic listeners, but with regard to its English provision, it has one channel on which it has to accommodate all the different listening interests—spoken word, music, sport and so on. One of the things that BBC Scotland wants to do better is to cross-promote so that someone who turns on the radio on a Saturday afternoon—say, a sports fan who does not listen to Radio Scotland at any other point in the week—realises that, for example, Ricky Ross has a fantastic music programme. I am sure that the commercial stations are thinking likewise. How do they ensure that people who tune in because the sport is amazing stay for the rest of the output?

That is where, as you have highlighted, BBC Scotland has been making some scheduling changes. The move has caused some concern in the music sector, and I have met the BBC to talk about the matter, because I do not think that it is in anybody’s interests for such an important public service radio broadcaster to diminish, or cause people to believe that there has been a diminution in, the opportunity to showcase emerging talent in Scotland. If it is to be Scotland’s national radio station, it has an important obligation—and opportunity—to do that.

I talked to Hayley Valentine about this, and she agreed that BBC Scotland plays an important role in showcasing talent and gave me a commitment that that would continue to be so. Indeed, there might well be more opportunities arising from better cross-promotion to ensure that things that might traditionally be on very late in the evening—programmes featuring musician of the week, album of the week, breakthrough artists or whatever—can be heard by all those people who might not hear them when they tune in at other points in the week.

Radio always has to evolve, but I am very confident, given how good public and private radio is in Scotland, that it will go from strength to strength. We have not even talked about news on radio, but I would observe that, in an environment where we work cheek by jowl with journalists, I have noticed that there are more radio journalists than was the case 10 or 20 years ago covering news from here. I know that there are countervailing pressures in other parts of the country where there is less local news or local news provision, and that is a concern. Ending where I started, though, I think that we just need to appreciate how good radio is in Scotland, and the strong listening figures support that.

:I have a confession to make, which is that I do not watch linear television full stop. In that, I am probably part of an emerging majority in the country. However, I watch programmes that have been made for the BBC Scotland channel, just as I watch things that have been commissioned elsewhere in the BBC, because I access what is new and emerging through the BBC iPlayer.

Part of the conversation around the BBC Scotland channel, which has got a little bit lost, is that, if we go back to the genesis of all this, it was around news coverage, because there is a problem—not a spiral. There was a problem, there is a problem and it still needs to be sorted. At that time, there was a notion that things might be better served by having a dedicated 6 o’clock news on television, in exactly the same way as BBC Radio Scotland in the morning does Scotland, the UK and the world, in that order, from the perspective of people here. The idea was to do the same for television, which is what happens in all other normal countries.

However, because that became political—because some people thought that it was very important and some did not, or were not prepared to countenance it—the discussion moved on to asking, “Well, if that can’t happen, but we know that there’s a deficiency, what can we do? Can we, with modern technology, have particularly focused scheduling for a Scottish audience somewhere in the linear world?” However, that discussion is taking place just at a time when the linear world is not what it was. If BBC Scotland were BBC One ten years ago, I think that it would be in a different place from where it is now.

:All channels will have a role to play as long as there is an older viewing demographic that accesses television in a largely linear way. That will continue until people stop accessing linear television. Those of us who do not watch linear television will be watching material that is produced for the BBC Scotland channel as we will be watching elsewhere.

It is worth speaking about this in the context where, historically, the BBC has invested significantly less in Scotland than the licence fee has contributed. Frankly, if £38 million is the number—I do not know whether that is right, but it is what has been quoted to me—it needs to be seen in the wider context of how much is spent on broadcasting, employing people and skills development. By way of a contextual observation. Danish public radio and television has twice as many staff based in Copenhagen as the BBC has in Scotland. We need to compare like with like. We have a population of 5 million that has been underserved until now. We are playing catch-up and this is one of the areas where the BBC is playing catch-up and we should support it in doing so.

:I have digressed.

:That is true, but you might add to that the national performing companies, such as Scottish Opera, which is a really good case in point. I will correct what I said a moment ago—I said screen builders when I meant set builders.

Sets are required for television, but they are also required for opera and the National Theatre of Scotland. We have different centres of excellence, and demand for the skills is growing. In the past, we did not have the capacity, because there were not the opportunities, but now multiple film and television projects are under way concurrently in Scotland. We want to be able to produce younger people, in particular, with the skill sets that they need in order to fulfil all those jobs. We are aiming to have a £1 billion gross value added sector in Scotland by 2030, but that is not the summit of my ambitions. I think that there is further room to grow, but we must produce students with the skills to fulfil all those opportunities.

:I have regular and open dialogue with the broadcasting and screen sector. It is an area that I am particularly interested in, because the direction of travel in that area is essentially positive. Things are significantly better in Scotland than they were even in recent decades, which is good. At the same time, there are a number of things that should give us reason to seek to make change, because they inhibit the potential for growth of public service operations in Scotland. As a consequence, we are not fulfilling our cultural and economic potential.

I regularly meet the BBC, Ofcom and people in the sector more generally. The last time that I was in London, I met Ian Murray, the Minister of State for Creative Industries, Media and Arts, and we discussed those issues. We had a lot in common in wanting success for the creative industries, which we talked about. However, when it came to charter renewal, that was a very good—or bad—example of the difference between being heard and things being acted on.

I have repeatedly given evidence to the committee about a change in atmospherics. It is no longer a new Government, but the current UK Government came into office saying that it wanted a reset with the devolved Governments and the European Union. It repeated often, “We want to discuss. We want to listen. We want to hear.” There are formal invitations to share views on, for example, the terms of reference for BBC charter renewal. However, on that, I asked a simple question: could Ian Murray or his officials point out to me anything from the Scottish Government’s submission on the terms of reference for the BBC charter renewal that had been included? Answer there came none.

That is the difference between saying that one wants to co-operate and doing so. There are other examples of what is not included, but there is no parity of esteem between the indigenous languages of Wales and Scotland in the terms of reference. That is to the detriment of Gaelic speakers in Scotland and all of us who do not speak the language but wish it to be properly served. I totally understand why Welsh is included—as it should be—but the suggestion that the Scottish Government made that Gaelic should be included was not adopted.

I will continue to encourage colleagues in the UK Government to take on board such suggestions. We have shared with the committee our priorities. It is public access information and, to be frank, it is beyond me why one would not want to include sensible suggestions.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about the broadcasting landscape in Scotland. For clarity, I should put on the record that I am a broadcaster by profession—I was a reporter for the BBC for the best part of a decade, and I was a news editor for the Austrian Broadcasting Corporation.

As the committee knows, broadcasting is a reserved matter. I am absolutely clear that that should not be the case. Broadcasting must be devolved, so that it can fully meet the needs of our audiences and creative industries.

This is a critical moment for broadcasting, particularly with the generational opportunity for change that the BBC charter review presents. It is vital that the Scottish Government takes this opportunity to ensure that the interests of Scottish audiences and creative professionals are reflected.

I have made clear that the Scottish Government is a strong supporter of the BBC in its delivery of its public service obligations. However, changes must be made, and I will ensure that our engagement with the charter review continues to press those points, particularly in relation to meaningful commissioning from Scotland that supports creative professionals who live and work here; sustainable, high-quality news provision that meets the needs of audiences across Scotland; and more robust regulation by Ofcom to ensure that vital public service obligations are met not only in letter but in spirit.

I am also clear that Gaelic must be better reflected in coverage. Gaelic broadcasting does not currently receive the recognition that it deserves, which is reflected in its omission from the terms of reference for the charter review, despite the Scottish Government advocating for its inclusion.

Beyond the charter review, adequate news coverage is a priority for us. Audiences in Scotland are interested in news that reflects and represents them. In response to Ofcom’s recent consultation on STV’s proposed changes to its news provision, we expressed our concerns in the strongest terms. There is no justification for the change, which will negatively impact audiences in the north of Scotland. It is an unnecessary erosion of news provision and I am deeply concerned that it is part of a broader trend, particularly following the BBC’s recent reduction of news and current affairs programming hours from 250 to 125 a year. Audiences in Scotland must be able to access a plurality of news that is duly accurate, duly impartial and trusted. It is essential that public service news providers meet their core obligations in a meaningful way and ensure that coverage accurately reflects Scotland’s interests.

Alongside those issues, United Kingdom network news continues to fall short in adequately and accurately reflecting the UK’s devolved landscape. Too often, stories that have substantial relevance to Scotland are overlooked, inaccurately framed or incorporated only as an afterthought in UK-wide coverage. Improving representation is not simply a matter of fairness; it is a core requirement of public service broadcasting. Audiences in Scotland must be able to rely on UK network news to give them a full, balanced and accurate account of the issues that affect them.

Another key focus is the proposed switch-off of digital terrestrial television services. Last month, I wrote to the UK Government to urge it to consider the impact of the prospective switch-off on vulnerable groups. I specifically raised the issue of potential health and wellbeing impacts if households lose access to the television services on which they rely.

I know that the committee is keen to discuss the skills landscape. A skilled workforce is vital to a sustainable screen sector. Screen Scotland supports a wide range of training initiatives for people at all stages of their careers, and skills development is baked into many of its funding streams. However, broadcasters must play their part. I remain deeply disappointed that the BBC cancelled “River City”, which resulted in the loss of associated training programmes. Although I understand that the BBC has committed to providing training elsewhere, I urge the BBC—and other public service broadcasters—to consider whether it could do more to support the next generation of Scottish talent and further develop the skills of those who already work in the screen industry.

I want to emphasise that Scotland’s broadcasting landscape is not only central to our democracy and cultural identity; it is a major driver of our creative economy. PSBs play an indispensable role in sustaining jobs, supporting independent production companies, investing in skills and projecting Scotland’s culture, languages and talent to audiences at home and globally.

I am happy to discuss any of those matters in more detail.