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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 November 2025
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Displaying 726 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

I would have to check the record, Mr Kerr.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

Excuse me. We met at lock 16 in Falkirk at the opening of the new centre.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

Convener, I think that I have outlined to the committee at great length the interactions that I have had with the chief executive—

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

Excuse me. If you will allow me, convener, I would say, again, that Mr Kerr does not seem to understand how the interaction with non-departmental bodies operates, with—

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

The key determinant in relation to Mr Bibby’s question is this: do all organisations have HR issues from time to time? Absolutely. Am I aware of any other organisation that has had this range and scale of issues? Absolutely not. Therefore, we need to understand how the situation could come about and why some of the issues were not dealt with, given that much of this has transpired through the media because people felt that the processes were not in place for matters to be resolved internally. I am greatly concerned about that. The Government’s responsibility is not only to make sure that there is new leadership and that the new leadership is best supported to do what HES is supposed to do as an arm’s-length organisation, but to be aware of the reasons why the situation transpired in order to ensure that the same situation does not arise in any other public bodies.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

I think that that is part of the package of investigations that Sir Mark is taking forward. I will hand over to Kenneth Hogg in a second, in case there is more granular information that I cannot provide to Mr Bibby on that.

Sir Mark has inherited a range of inquiries. Those are on-going, and they are happening in parallel. As I said to Mr Halcro Johnston, it would be everybody’s hope that the investigations take place as timeously as possible.

As to the extent of external HR advice, I know that this is an area where we and officials have signalled to HES that the Scottish Government can provide an understanding of different external capacities that might help these processes. That is definitely something that has been offered.

Mr Hogg, do you want to add anything to my answer?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

As a general rule—my private office is not here to attest to this but I am sure that it would—when people wish to speak to me, I am very open to requests to do so. We do not always know what people want to talk to us about, formally and informally, and I want to be best informed. I am very well advised by the civil service, but I have a curiosity, as well as a responsibility, in my area of responsibility.

10:30  

I have spoken at great length with senior management at Historic Environment Scotland because not only are there the issues of concern but there is the big prize of Historic Environment Scotland, at all levels of the organisation, being able to focus on its primary area of responsibility. That is what I want it to do, and I want to be satisfied that it is able to do so.

Mr Halcro Johnston does not need to have any concerns about my willingness to meet people. I am perfectly willing to do so, but I am also content that the way in which we have managed our relationship through a very difficult circumstance in Historic Environment Scotland has been done in the entirely appropriate and proportionate way that it should be.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

No, I do not accept the charge. I have been involved personally. I have met the chairman and the chief executive personally and I have ensured that the appropriate officials are attending the appropriate meetings and reporting back to me about developments. As I have said, if there is a wish for me to attend a board meeting, I have no objection to doing so, but I am content that we have been attending all meetings that needed to be attended. I am not sure whether Mr Kerr wants to point to a meeting that was not attended. All relevant meetings have been attended.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

I have been advised by my senior officials about what has been proceeding in these meetings, and that has helped us to be able to make the right decisions, given the role of the Government relative to the senior management of Historic Environment Scotland, which is to make sure that they are being best supported in getting from a very difficult position to a better one.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Angus Robertson

Absolutely. It was apparent to me that there were serious issues in relation to leadership generally in Historic Environment Scotland and that those issues needed to be better understood. You will understand that, by that stage, we had a new chief executive in place and we were approaching the issue of the chairmanship of the board—that was in the first quarter of this year.

I do not have in front of me the exact timeline of when complaints were being made and stories were appearing in the media and so on, but there was a growing general understanding that there were leadership issues in Historic Environment Scotland. As we were becoming aware of that, I was extremely keen for us to be best informed about how the board intended to deal with those issues.